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circumcision

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
ok i am not greatly informed on this subject so please any jewish people (or non jewish, wouldnt want to descriminate!) feel free to correct me if im wrong but basically.... ritual circumcision.

performed publicly, no anaesthetic, on a new born baby who is not given a chance to defend himself.

now it seams to me that this is a somewhat barbaric practice. i mean leaving to one side the glaring human rights issues (of lack of choice etc.) for a second, the lack of anaesthetic alone is reason enough to condemn this practice surely.

someone explain to me why, in this day and age noone even thinks twice about this practice. in the age of "self evident inaliable human rights", in the so called enlightened secular society that we live in, this is still considered perfectly acceptable and is common place.

i can not think of a comparable example for my next point so someone either debunk it completely or help me out with an example but i have the distinct feeling that if this was a muslim practice it would have been outlawed and discontinued (at least in the western world) decades ago.

is this another example of western double standards or am i just wrong?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In my view circumcision serves no purpose.

    Advocates of it state that it promotes cleanliness; if so is a foreskin so difficult to clean?

    Also it's mutilation.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't think it's nearly as bad as female circumsision :eek2:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by HunnyPot
    I don't think it's nearly as bad as female circumsision :eek2:

    well no its not but thats not really the point
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by HunnyPot
    I don't think it's nearly as bad as female circumsision :eek2:

    Its not as bad as having your hands chopped off, whats your point?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ...but to answer the question.

    Its because its tradishun, innit? And anyone who claims thats its barbaric child-abuse is just racist cos they dont understand other cultures, like.

    Like all religious traditions, it comes out of primitive necessity. Pork is "dirty" because it goes off quickly, menstruation is "dirty" because its blood. Animals are killed to hala standards because blood rots the meat in hot weather. Circumcision keeps stuff clean when there aint no blood.

    But I do believe hanging a goat upside down and slitting its neck open is considered barbaric now, so why not genital mutilation?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    'Tradishun'? :lol:

    well no its not but thats not really the point

    You dispute the notion of human rights. Why?

    Do you condone murder and slavery then?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by monocrat
    'Tradishun'? :lol:

    You dispute the notion of human rights. Why?

    Do you condone murder and slavery then?

    Im good at being sardonic:p

    Whos disupting the notion of human rights? I do belive the point in saying "no point" that its impossible to grade human rights on "goodness" or "badness". Female circumcision is more horrific that male circumcision, but it doesnt make it "wronger" and, anyway, even if it did, its an irrelevance. As is any mention of slavery.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i'm not sure i understand the point of it. I mean, if it's just to keep 'clean' why is it such a big thing? why does it still happen all the time?
    Surely it would be excruiatingly painful?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The whole issue of ritual mutilation is treated very differently by different faiths. Jews practise circumsision, yet Sikhs won't even cut their hair. Wierd or what?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I shit on "tradition".

    Few things piss me off as much as trying to justify something because it's a tradition. What's wrong is wrong, and that's that.

    Individuals should be given the opportunity of choosing whether to have a circumcision. No one has the right to do that to children.

    That male circumcision is not supposed to have negative effects (some say it has positive effects over non-circumcised people) but that is not the point. It's an irreversible process and people should have a say on whether they want it done.

    The female circumcision is vile beyond belief and those who inflict it on girls should be castrated.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    female circumcision is actually now known as FGM or female genital mutilation, as its a completely different thing and totally unlike male circumcision. I think that circumcision of babies is horrific and should only be done if medically necessary and obviously with full anaesthetic. It shouldnt be done for religious reasons, If men werent supposed to have foreskins, they wouldnt have been born with them.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    very easy to ridicule ancient practices without understanding any of it. if the bibles rule on circumsision is followed then no anesthetic is needed. the cutting is supposed to take place on the 8th day of the childs life. modern medicine has discovered that on the 8th day of a boys life, the blood flow to the genitals is reduced to a bare minimum and nerve endings can hardly feel pain. it is a very healthy option. STD's including aids, are far less likely in a circumsized male. surely it is the parents choice and not the childs?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by morrocan roll
    surely it is the parents choice and not the childs?

    Then it is also the parents choice if they wish to push the child down the stairs, and no-one can stop them. But oh, wait a minute, thats cruelty.

    It doesnt matter how humanely it has been done, it is still disfiogurement of a innocent child who has no option in the matter. If it served a medical purpose then I would ahve no problems with it, but it is merely a religious ritual which has no place in a modern, decent, society.

    And cleanliness is no longer an issue- soap and hot water exists for a reason. As for STDs, I fail to see how losing a bit of skin will decrease your chances of having AIDS. I mean, a kid with seven fingers will statistically have fewer STDs, but thsi does not mean every boy should have his left little finger removed eight days after birth.

    It served a purpose once, it no longer does so.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kermit
    Then it is also the parents choice if they wish to push the child down the stairs, and no-one can stop them. But oh, wait a minute, thats cruelty.

    It served a purpose once, it no longer does so.
    surely a parent is still alowed to decide how to bring a child up! culturaly, religiously etc. seeing as male circumsision has no detrimental effects AT ALL...but does have positive ones what is so wrong with it?

    'It served a purpose once, it no longer does so'.
    and what would that purpose have once been that isn't relevent now? pushing a child down the stairs or cutting fingers off is rather sill don't you think?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by morrocan roll
    very easy to ridicule ancient practices without understanding any of it. if the bibles rule on circumsision is followed then no anesthetic is needed. the cutting is supposed to take place on the 8th day of the childs life. modern medicine has discovered that on the 8th day of a boys life, the blood flow to the genitals is reduced to a bare minimum and nerve endings can hardly feel pain. it is a very healthy option. STD's including aids, are far less likely in a circumsized male. surely it is the parents choice and not the childs?

    i was under the impression that STDs were more likely in circumsised males because there is no protection of the penis which means you are more likely to have tiny lesions allowing stds to enter the blood stream more easily.

    could be wrong though
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by octopus of doom
    i was under the impression that STDs were more likely in circumsised males because there is no protection of the penis which means you are more likely to have tiny lesions allowing stds to enter the blood stream more easily.

    could be wrong though
    it's not new. tests have shown for years that a cirumsized dick is a healthier dick. i'm circumsized as were most males from my generation. i have sons who have not been done. it's not something that is an issue with me apart from the fact that there seems to be an ever increasing number of fucking busy bodys interfeering with other peoples lives. it's getting ridiculous when , wether or not i think a good slap for one of my kids is no longer my choice but the government saying i can't do it full stop. what the fuck does it have to do with anyone else?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by octopus of doom
    i was under the impression that STDs were more likely in circumsised males because there is no protection of the penis which means you are more likely to have tiny lesions allowing stds to enter the blood stream more easily.

    could be wrong though

    Circumcised penises do tend to have less problem with STDs and circumcised men as a group have been found to have a lower percentage incident of HIV infection ... just a miniscule foreskin tear can open the man up to infection.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    well then i stand corrected... my bad
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm cut. If it hurt, I can't remember, and yes, rolly's right, it does reduce chances of infection. My dad chose to have it done because, well, all doctors think about is how healthy things are :rolleyes: . It makes no difference. But I am not under the illusion I can have unsafe sex, just because it's safer .

    Yeah, so, it's something some people do. Deal with it :p
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by the doc horatio
    Yeah, so, it's something some people do. Deal with it :p
    the anti hunting brigade will want to ban it though. anything to do with blood or a little discomfort or pain should be ilegal in their fluffy cloud soft cushioned version of reality.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i dont think it should be banned at all thats not my point. i simply think that to perform it without anaesthetic on a newborn is unnecessary. why not wait till they are old enough to choose for themselves?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Because actually its less traumatic for the newborn whose brain hasn't developed fully. Between the time of birth and the time of realisation and communication there are significant developments to the structures of the brain and awareness that would make the event even harder.

    Im not saying I give a toss one way or the other. Im cut personally and was done at birth and have no recollection nor ever had of it. i just thought it was normal. All roman catholics when i was a kid were circumcised in the US. im glad im cut actually, i actually find it personally much more aesthetic.

    But thats just my opinion.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    hmmmm.. you guys are beginning to make me wish id been done..........
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by octopus of doom
    hmmmm.. you guys are beginning to make me wish id been done..........
    and no cheese ...ever!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well, by banning the ritual of circumcision, it's also imposing our values on Jewish/Muslim traditions, therefor going against the human rights act.

    Do I believe in circumcision? It depends. A female circumcision is much more painful and done at a later age. It involves tearing up the vagina using glass ir a rock so that once it heals and in to adulthood, the woman can't have pleasure when making love. However, whilst female circumcison is illegal, it still goes on.

    About male circumcision, as I've said, it's part of the tradition of some religions, just like some tribes in South America sharpen the teeth of their children and pierce their noses. Who are we to impose our values?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    We on the other hand don't appreciate sharp teeth too much. ;)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by girl with sharp teeth
    from a female point of view, it's much more tempting to administer er...oral devotion to a circumcised man ;)
    well i think thats just your own personal taste, its not my preference, so thats more of a girlwithsharp teeth point of view rather than a female one.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    God bless you rainbow! ;)
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