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Death To Traitors
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
<IMG alt="image" src="http://www.deadarab.com/johnwalker.jpg">
The subject is a hot one in US...don't know what the attitudes is in the ol pirate kingdom...I do know that there was a time when such folk were not tolereated; that the IRA spends no time 'rehabilitating' their turncoats...etc.
Your thoughts on this holiday eve?
Diesel
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The subject is a hot one in US...don't know what the attitudes is in the ol pirate kingdom...I do know that there was a time when such folk were not tolereated; that the IRA spends no time 'rehabilitating' their turncoats...etc.
Your thoughts on this holiday eve?
Diesel
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Comments
"Misunderstanding"... ??? ONLY misunderstanding was his pathetic miscalculation that he would not be held responsible for his actions... but then, liberals ALWAYS think that they are immune...
[ 23-12-2001: Message edited by: Teufelhund ]
Hang him, encase the body in hog guts and throw it overboard!
Diesel
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Id hand em over to the Northern alliance, mind, they LOVE foreign fighters, and can be much more 'hospitable' than we are <IMG alt="image" SRC="smile.gif" border="0">
It wud save on the bullets anyway.
I really like the idea of handing over all combatants to the NA...wherever found. We as nations could work wonders even include the notorious UN in the activities involving extradition to New Texas for prosecution. Indentured servitude to the victors or death. Simple choise!
Diesel
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enuff of who? western taliban sympathisers? depends. yes, there a whole lot of UK muslims over there, or at least there were.
but the US have got their knickers in a twist over this guy. a white, middle class californian from marin county, a reknowned uber-liberal area.
from the economist:
it then goes on to say that basically Walker should be executed, and to not would make a farce of the Bush's pledge to "hunt down global terrorists, wherever they happen to be".
I think he should be shot just for THINKING about liking those fuckers.
Oh, and Diesel, why do you insist on always referring to the UK as "the ol pirate kingdom"? Surely you must understand that that's equivalent to a Brit consistently referring to the USA as a nation of slavery? Both were things our respective countries turned their backs on a long time ago, I'm sure we'd both like to think. Personally, I don't get that would up by it, since I always try to disregard such inflammatory wording in search of real content, but - it would be nice, you know?
Teufelhund:
'"Misunderstanding"... ??? ONLY misunderstanding was his pathetic miscalculation that he would not be held responsible for his actions... but then, liberals ALWAYS think that they are immune...'
Starting from the last: how would you know? Have you ever been one? Have you even known all those you brand as "liberals"? If not, how can you make a pronouncement about what "liberals ALWAYS think"? And, even more to the point, how can you pour scorn on "liberals" and claim to be a citizen of a country which calls itself "the land of the the free"?
Also, to turn to the more general issues here, why all the fuss about treason? Some of you may know of the Cold War defector Kim Philby, who said, "To betray, you must first belong." Is it really the case that Walker has gone back on his word, or just that he turned his back on a lifestyle that few Americans can concieve that anyone would not want? Did you know that the USSR had big problems acknowledging why defections really happened simply because they couldn't understand why anyone would want to leave the workers' paradise?
Now, I don't deny that Walker probably fought for the Taleban, who are a darn nasty bunch of folks. My question is, is he really guilty of betrayal, or simply fighting for the other side? Perhaps both amount to treason, but I think there's a fundamental difference in there.
US government was patterned after the rule on a pirate ship, probably a ship from the ol pirate kingdom!
Anyway, it sucks to be JW right now...and won't likely get better unless he comes up with a way to make himself valuable to US instead of a liability.
Diesel
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ROFLMAO... <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0">
I still don't care for "ol pirate kingdom" anyway. The majority of pirates were Spanish, it was only the famous ones who were British.
Child... I dealt with the reality of "liberals" long before you were born. As you might be aware, I spent two years of my life in a place called Vietnam, and the hatred that those who served beside me have for the likes of Jane Fonda and her ilk has NOT ABATED, nor will it ever. The Whore of Hanoi simply was rooting for ANYONE to destroy the nation to which she held citizenship, as Jihad Johnny still holds citizenship. Lil' Johnny picked up a rifle and committed an act of war against his nation.
For those of us who have served in combat, defending our nation, or the interest of our nation, who have held our brothers dying beside us from that combat, it is not some chic classroom exercise or intellectual discussion, IT IS VERY DAMNED REAL!
Had I come upon Lil' "misled" Johnny, his justice would have been a bullet in the head. So it would have been from ANY combatant from ANY nation, ANY soldier who has the slightest comprehension of honor.
I have watched those who had literally spit upon me thirty years ago attempt to assimilate themselves into society, and now want to wave the flag as if they had been "a patriot" and defender of their nation all along. I am not alone in my disgust for these "Newborn Conservatives". I have watched too damned many of the REALLY liberal, like the Congressman Earl Blumenauer who represents my part of Oregon, and who went to the same high school and college as I, and whom I interacted with ALL too frequently, now attempt to "correct" their wayward ways and want to defend what they have long attacked...
Diesel and I have laughed at length as the recent "gun-grabbers" lined up at the courthouse in Seattle, clamoring for Concealed Weapons permits to carry the very same guns they would have had banned, until reality struck them across the face in September.
Although I disagree with the tenets of Muhammed Ali's faith and public stand, I can still respect THE MAN, because he acted honorably within the dictates of his faith. He went to jail, and was stripped of his livelihood, rather than to go against his conscience. Lil' Johnny's father is whining and waffling, attempting to excuse his wayward son's behaviour, and THAT engenders ONLY disgust. TAKE A STAND, and live or DIE by that stand, but don't snivle because it didn't work out the way it played in your wetdreams.
I took my stand, thirty years ago, and I was shot for it, IN COMBAT! Rather than whine, snivel, and go home, I went back, and was shot again for my trouble. I have FACED the reality of the consequences of my beliefs... have you? Will you ever??? Are the things you hold dear worth dying for? ...worth KILLING for??? And YES, I lost count of the number I killed during combat.
It is NOT a level playing field... you are speculating from the safety that the service of barbarians like me provide, and then you question and criticize our barbarity...
Pick up a rifle, stand a post, and defend a position - THEN and only then might you question my thought processes. Until you have done THAT, you are simply engaging in mental masturbation...
[ 23-12-2001: Message edited by: Teufelhund ]
Thank-you for your prompt response. May I ask, did you type it calmly, or fuming?
First, I concede that I am a child compared to you and that you were dealing with many things before I was born. Do not expect me to accord you instant godhood because of that. Would you instantly defer to a man one second your senior on all matters? Well then. I respect your experience; I have the wisdom to question.
Secondly, let me salute your experience in battle. Out of interest, were you a volunteer or a conscript? Not that it really matters once one is in the field, of course, but I'd like to know all the same.
Had I come upon Lil' "misled" Johnny, his justice would have been a bullet in the head. So it would have been from ANY combatant from ANY nation, ANY soldier who has the slightest comprehension of honor.
Believe it or not, I understand that completely. I have known many servicemen in my life, a good few of whom have seen the kind of down-in-the-dirt combat you describe. I understand full well the kill-or-be-killed reality of combat and do not doubt its necessity.
I don't entertain more than academic doubts that Walker fought against the USA. He may or may not have known that fighting the USA was in store when he joined up, but to me that really is beside the point. My question is, has he really committed an act of betrayal? Has he turned his back on what he himself swore?
Now, you may say that he was a United States Citizen and therefore owed alliegance to the USA anyway. Well, I say no, unless he explicitly swore an oath himself and of his own free will. Perhaps you have seen the film Braveheart? When Wallace is told he stands in taint of high treason he says, "Never in my whole life did I swear alliegance to him [King Edward]." His judge replies, "It matters not: he is your king."
You see what I'm driving at? By all means fight Walker and men like him, and if necessary kill them as enemies. But refrain from calling them traitors unless they really have betrayed. Remember that George Washington and friends were called 'traitors,' when all they did was do their duty and follow their hearts.
It is NOT a level playing field... you are speculating from the safety that the service of barbarians like me provide, and then you question and criticize our barbarity...
(1) I know life isn't fair, so don't patronize me by reminding me of that which every adult already knows.
(2) Safety?
(3) When did I ever criticize the barbarity of war except to call it a sadly necessary evil? Dig through TheSite's archives a little and research what I've written. Back your claim up with my own words.
Pick up a rifle, stand a post, and defend a position - THEN and only then might you question my thought processes. Until you have done THAT, you are simply engaging in mental masturbation...
No, sir. I will question anything and everything I come across. So you fought and wounded for your country. Bravo, sir, and I say that with no sarcasm at all. But to hell with you if you truly think that your combat experience has given you superhuman thought processes that place you above suspicion or questioning.
All I ask is reasoned debate. I know it can't be done on the battlefield. As far as I'm concerned, that makes it all the more valuable in peacetime.
Yours,
Mac
[ 24-12-2001: Message edited by: MacKenZie ]
Give him the EXACT SAME fate as William Wallace, just do it on Afgan soil. Don't want his carcass here.
You have NEVER experienced what is required to get me fuming... all that has been witnessed within THIS forum is getting a momentary focus of attention. VN got me motivated. There is a difference. And when I got truly pissed off concerning an issue, THAT is where the nickname "Thanatos" came from... Not words, actions.
If you commit an act of treason against your country, against your government, you had better be good enough to pull it off. Had them who rebeled against British rule in the American colonies NOT pulled it off, they would have been killed. Publicly butchered. NO QUESTION! THAT is what is to be expected. And don't attempt to feed me any crap that your country is too "civil" for that... THAT is the nature of conflict on that scale.
Read Tolstoy concerning "Civil Disobedience"... If you are going to commit the act, on WHATEVER level, then you must stand straight and tall when the bill comes due. My disgust comes from the sniveling and whining... "give him another chance"... As I said, I can respect Muhammed Ali, even though he protested against the war in which I served. Ali didn't snivel; he stood as a man.
Why the fuss about treason...?
I attempted to give you a glimmer of the perspective of one who HAS served in a war. Treason is the most revulsive degeneate act possible, betrayal of what we hold infinitely more precious than our own lives, and the lives of them we love.
Until you have served on the front line in defense of your country, you cannot begin to comprehend how vile we find it... ALL who have served.
I think we're beginning to find common ground here. I don't dispute that the USA may well regard Walker as an enemy - no problem with that at all. My query relates to the issues of betrayal and treason alone.
The way I see it, the following apply:
(1) Citizenship. One cannot commit treason against a country to which one does not belong as a citizen. Did Walker renounce his citizenship before joining 'the other side'?
(2) Sworn alliegance. Did Walker ever, of his own free will, swear alliegance to the USA? I bring this up because I don't think one can reasonably accuse him of betrayal otherwise. Moreoever, I don't think it's reasonable to infer alliegance from place of birth.
(3) Due process of law. Can we agree that treason (betrayal) is one of the gravest crimes? If so, then let's have the decency (to ourselves) to try Walker in accordance with the Constitution.
Just to re-iterate: I have no problem with an American regarding Walker as an enemy, just as Wallace and Washington were regarded as enemies. I have no problem with him being treated as such. I'm interested in whether his acts truly qualify as betrayal and, thus, treason.
(Believe me, I'm all for individual responsibility, and I'd love to discuss that with you some time.)
Mac
In SE Asia there were a few US and European 'individuals' that ran with Charlie...they were not fought, they were hunted! And found!
Mac, he wasn't shouting...that's the way he is...we all likes him the way he is!
T, runt grunt called...geting ready to depart...gave him short lecture...doubt that he listened cause he'll catch something.
Time to get ready to go skiing...Merry Christmas to all of you, and peace to men of good will.
Diesel
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Jihad Johnnie took up arms against his nation. It does NOT really matter, any of the questions you posed... He went beyond words to bullets. NO going back. Ever.
As Diesel states (if THAT was directed toward me), I am not shouting. Simply stating simple fact.
It is 0715 hours here, and I must get off to work, so this is going to be "short"... will direct a more detailed post to you when I have time.
I have done a few things with a degree of expertise in my life... Fifteen years, I raced motorcycles, professionally, to the international level. I won races and signed autographs from Daytona, Florida to Vancouver, B.C., to Phillip Island, Austrailia, to Monza, Italy.
Ten years I supported myself with my camera, and still do the odd job when I need to raise some capital.
I competed against the likes of Prefontaine in track and cross country, and did well enough to earn a full-ride to college.
I am a published author.
As Diesel might tell you, I can do a "fair" job of modifying an AK-47 or a 1911 pistol to function VERY well...
What I have done the absolute best, in my life, is to hunt men. One enlistment in the Marine Corps, and assorted duties tracking miscreant civilians, hundreds of miles away.
My signature line on other forums reads: supplemental mineral injections alter aberrent behaviour...
The task I performed best was that of "mineral injector"... <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
Once a feral animal tastes human blood, you hunt it down and kill it. It has lost its fear of humans, and looks at them as prey. Circumstances DO NOT matter. You do the job which MUST be done...
Whether Jihad Johnnie renounced his US citizenship, or not, he IS what he IS. Whether he has his whiney ass excuses or not, he IS what he IS.
Time for words was prior to his picking up a rifle and stepping over the line to use bullets. Ain't no going back. Better for him had he the honor of feeding HIMSELF a bullet, but then, traitors are not conversational with HONOR!
You want shades of gray in a matter which is black & white. As my grandad used to say: shades of gray are for liars and thieves - it IS or it is NOT!
As Diesel suggested, we did not simply engage them... we hunted them down. And we did NOT use words upon them. We gave them the justice which they chose for themselves...
I'll get back to you when I get off work.
btw~ Merry Christmas!!!
[ 24-12-2001: Message edited by: Teufelhund ]
Teufelhund, I think I get what you're driving at. Like I say, I've no problems dealing with Walker as one would any other enemy. Perhaps the technical issues of whether or not he is also a traitor are irrelevant once that is taken into account -- to be honest, I don't care enough to drag the argument out much longer. I think we've each made our respective points.
Regarding a "black-and-white" view of the world, this is my take. I like to think of moral issues as grey in the same way that a picture in a newspaper is grey. You know, there isn't actually any grey in there: it's just black dots and white spaces quite close together. I think that certain things are dead right and others are dead wrong, but that when you step back far enough the dots of right and wrong merge into shades of grey. Like killing: sometimes right, sometimes wrong. The overall issue is grey, while the individual cases are pretty clear-cut.
I think that one of the challenges of being human is to know when to apply general rules and when to really examine the nuts and bolts of a situation. Also, I think that we must always bear in mind our own personal reponsibilities. If the events of the Twentieth Century (and in particular the Nuremburg Tribunrals) have taught us anything, it is this: following orders is no excuse. Yes, orders have to and will be given, but it is incumbent on each and every one of us to question, even if only for a moment, such things, lest we wake up to find ourselves guarding tomorrow's Jews at tomorrow's Belsens and Auschwitzes.
Let me finish with a quote from Thomas Paine:
"My country is the world and my religon is to do good."
-- Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man
Once again, the compliments of the season to you all, and especially those with whom I've tussled in debate over the last year - I've learned a little from all of you. Thank you.
Mac
I think you make a good point, and the last part reminds me of the quote another member has, "evil only survives if good men stand back and do nothing"
You are for or against us, black & white, solid thick line, no matter how far back you step you can see the little b!tch betrayed his country my taking up arms against it and training to act out a terror campain against us. If I were to accidently slip up and tell my father some of the things I work on. I most likely would be thrown in jail for life and at a time of war I would be executed. I accept that fate because the information is so critical to the survival of our military forces.
And as for the "Always make excuses for their actions". What do you see the little b!tch doing? My daddy loves a man, so I became a traitor to my country. What the F^ck is that!
"T, runt grunt called...geting ready to depart...gave him short lecture...doubt that he listened cause he'll catch something."
Don't worry about me. I know to only do the Thai chicks with a Butterfly on their right shoulder and I always use Trojan Superas!
Haven't caught anything yet and I don't expect to any time soon
<IMG alt="image" src="http://www.cegunshows.com/usa_md_wht.gif">
TJ...I wasn't talking about sex...! But that is obviously what you were thinking about...he, he, eeeeee!
My Christmas present arrived...Yunker - 2! Totally kuel!
Diesel
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Naw... all the GOOD stuff he inherited... <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
Yep...they caught something...no, something caught them!
Diesel
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Y'all wants ta EXPLAIN b'fore the next BBB gits thar...? The moment of edification awaits... <IMG alt="image" SRC="eek.gif" border="0"> {radiation therapy...}
[ 30-12-2001: Message edited by: Thanatos...AGAIN ]
Actually, getting shot tends to alter all kinds of behaviour. Quite frequently the normal ones, including (my personal all-time favourite activity) breathing.
I can take the grim humour, but I can't help noticing the implication that anything other than the American ideal (as if the USA can agree with itself what that is) is aberrant. :: sigh :: Still, everyone thinks they're right at the time, I suppose...
Living in slum dwellings, the paint used on the walls was lead based. After injesting the massive doses of lead, the lead deposited itself in the poor felon's shin bones... the resultant pain is the CAUSE of the anti-social behavior (so the theorum stated).
Being of a kind, concerned, and loving nature, I sought a solution to the problem of the mineral imbalance. If the cause of the problem was the mineral concentration in his shins that threw his chemical make-up out of balance, then a supplemental mineral injection, of say 230 grains of lead, administered cranially, would balance OUT the imbalance, and the poor victim of society could be freed from his aberrent behavior.
The IDEA of the story was that the felon, the criminal, is actual the victim of society, and those he commits crimes against are the perpetrators of the dispicable acts against the poor maligned felon. This is an example of "enlightened liberalism" at its best... NO ONE is responsible for their actions, and there should be NO accountability.
As you might have devined, I am not necessarily aligned with that particular camp...
While there is a bit of the old "tongue in cheek" involved here (with my signature line), by now, you should have figured out that I believe that EVERYONE is responsible for their actions, AND accountable...
Sorry for the verbosity, but thought I might respond to you in detail... <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0">
[ 30-12-2001: Message edited by: Thanatos...AGAIN ]
I fully support individual responsibility, but not culpability.
The difference is, roughly speaking, as follows. Suppose you use a gun to shoot some poor sod in the head. He dies (not surprisingly). I say that the gun is responsible for his death (if you had squeezed your finger on empty air he wouldn't have died) but not culpable (it had no free will).
The reason I don't (at the moment) support a view of humans as culpable agents is that I have not encountered an argument sufficient to convince me of free will. I've not seen a terribly convincing disproof, either. However, I lean towards the "no free will" camp. If there is no free will then there can be no culpability, only responsibility
The gun is an inanimate object. Don't be stupid. Who had to put the bullet in? Why the hell would you aim an empty gun at someone's head with the intent to kill? You can't just command it to kill someone. You have to be the one to put it in motion. Cause and effect. You are the cause, you are the responsible person...the effect is death. And you are the one who caused it. The route you took was by the way of the gun...it helped, but its not the culprit.
Some people just have soap for brains...!
Diesel
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