Religious or a way to keep women down?

Former Member

I was in DisneyWorld and it was in the 90's F with about the same humidity in August. In fact it was so hot and wet, clouds would form from blue skies in the morning into a cloud burst each afternoon.

And in Disney World a woman in full burqa black walks by with only her eyes showing. Her guy was in clothes that were Western.

I know the dress is too keep women virtuous, but is there something beyond religion as to why women are dressed as they are by some people from the Middle East? Head to toe in black in Florida heat was...a very strong sight to get out of my mind.

Former Member

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Former Member

I am not a muslim but as far as I know veils are there to make things easier for men and women. Covering up can make women feel safe and respected and it means men don't get distracted. I think it means you can focus on God (Allah) without distractions. Christians believe more or less the same thing (that it is wrong to look at someone lustfully) but don't cover up. Lots of women choose to cover up. I think it should be a choice, but the veil itself is not a bad thing. Question: Do you think women get much respect in a culture full of porn/stripclubs etc. Women are people who were not put on this earth to be stared at. Covering up is the Islamic way of dealing with that. Just my (long!) personal opinion

Former Member

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Former Member

Originally posted by girl with sharp teeth
good point angelic, but do you think that women in a culture that covers up are respected? look at their treatment and get back to me.

True but the two are not necessarily firmly connected, I could imagine even if women were treated with full respect and with equal rights that many may want to wear a Burka, it is cultural as well as religious.

The issue is the fact that women in many coubntries where it is traditional have no choice, they are forced to wear it and that is wrong..........

Former Member

I think a lot of women in muslim countries are not respected, but I think that is because Islam is misused. Christianity has been mis used in this way to. People seem to twist religions into what is more socially viable for them. As most cultures are patriachal ( dominated by men) keeping women down is really important. The West in just more subtle. It keeps women from becoming empowered by making us worry about our weight, making the law work against us when it comes to rape, and not working to prevent domestic violence. In the West women control themselves because they are scared, in Islamic countries religion is used. I think religions (including christianity and islam ) have to be adapted for anyhting to change.

Former Member

Christianity has been mis used in this way to

I agree. In the US most Muslim women who want to show respect for their family, if they are conservative, will be totally in western except with a scarf on their head and shoulders.

I just felt bad for the woman...it was soooo hot.

Still, she got to see DisneyWorld.

Former Member

Originally posted by *Angelic*
I The West in just more subtle. It keeps women from becoming empowered by making us worry about our weight, making the law work against us when it comes to rape, and not working to prevent domestic violence.

I agree that there is not full gender equality in the West but I do not think that these favctors are deliberate.

Who makes women worry about their weight?

What lwas work against female rape victims? (not against men?)

I agree that more could be done to prevent domestic violence but the main problem i belive is often an unwillingness to convict. This is bad but not a male plot to keep women down. many of the msot powerful epople in the country are women.............

Former Member

If you look at the statistics only a tiny proportion of rape cases even get to court and most of them are found not guilty. Admittedly it is a difficult crime to prosecute but something is still not right. Two women are murdered a week by their partner or ex partner. 1 in 4 relationships in Scotland is a violent one. I don't want to sound like I am man bashing. Men lose out to. Because for so long looking after children has been soley womens work men with children are not giver adequet paternity leave, have few legal rights, are expected to pay 30% in child maintenence while sometimes not being allowed to see their kids. A few men have all the power. The fashion industry (run by men) makes women worry about their weight. Some psychologists and anthropologists suggest that women feel they have no control in their lives or have a fear of their bodies and that causes eating disorders. There are lots of arguments here, but really what I think is that things have to be equal, and these days feminism should be replaced with people ism which would mean that men and women worked to improve things for both sexes instead of sniping on about the past. Maybe religions get in the way of that. What do you lot think?

Former Member

I agree with your sentiments about improving things for everyone and I also agree there are issues about abuse to women and the apparent lack of success and prosecuting and bringing to justice the criminals.

I don't think you can prove this is societies way of subjugating women though.

Your example of a man dominated fashion industry to my mind (i know little abotu it) seems wrong. Many famous designers are women and all famous models are women so surely they are equally as responsible for promoting the image they do?

Former Member

The idea of a burqa is to preserve a womans chastity , and not to encourage lust , which can lead to roused passions and misery and suffering.

It allows a woman to proceed about her business without being 'eyed up' by men.

It is for the protection of both men and women.

Former Member

Surely men should wear them as well then?

Former Member

I know what you mean. Fashion designers design clothes, which are worn by just about everyone. So why have wafer thin models to show them off. To maintain their weight those women are eating the same or less than the poorest bangladeshi woman or the starvation rations handed out in the Jewish ghettos in Amsterdam during WW2. Medically these women are starving. They are risking their health life and fertility, yet they are held up to be the perfect woman. They weigh 23% less than the average woman. I am 8 stone 7. I am medically half a stone underweight. But not thin enough to be a model. Fashion designers are not the whole of the fashion industry. I don't blame all men I blame the people in power (men or women). If women had a lot of power they would demand more things than men would (free child care, and end to violence and war). Lots of men want these things to of course. If everyone banded together, we could do a lot. But some of those in power wouldn't want that, so men and women are encouraged to look at all the differences instead of similarities

Former Member

I don't necessarily agree that it is the pwerful that force that view. Feminism could be said to be just as responsible as anything else for promoting the view of women and men holding different issues but that was a grass roots manouevre.

Also when Thatcher was PM she went to war and rolled back the welfare state so i don't think it is as simpleas saying women will want certain things, that falls into the same trap..........

Former Member

Some people would say Thatcher only got to the top by acting like a man (a very stupid, nasty and ugly one.) More women opposed the last war than men. Feminism had its place when women were unable to vote. Now, yes it is doing a lot of damage to everyone (I think) and has gone too far. Feminism was about empowering women, but now it seems to be about putting men down. Sometimes (OK most of the time) I don't understand men at all. We have different strengths and weaknesses and so we complememt each other. Anything that puts men against women or vice versa (whether it be feminism or anything else) is a bad thing

Former Member

I agree, noble sentiments indeed..........:)

Former Member

Thanks. Its nice to discuss things with sane people for a change:)

Former Member

Angelic, the neat thing you'll find about this area is that people have very strong opinions, but we keep debating. It doesn't get into a we hate that person type of thing where people stop posting to a persons posts....unless they are an extreme Nazi type.

So... welcome.

Former Member

Its cool. Most of my mates have the same views as me so not much room for discussion. There was a discussion about the Iraq war at my friends church and this one guy really disagreed with me (fair enough) but he took it personally. He always used to give me lifts home but now I have to get two buses home in the dark from a dodgy area. Teach me to argue! Even though I have strong opinions I can admit that I am wrong and will say if I have changed my mind.

Former Member

That was big of him. Big strong man can't take a little debate.

Former Member

Originally posted by *Angelic*
I am not a muslim but as far as I know veils are there to make things easier for men and women. Covering up can make women feel safe and respected and it means men don't get distracted. I think it means you can focus on God (Allah) without distractions. Christians believe more or less the same thing (that it is wrong to look at someone lustfully) but don't cover up. Lots of women choose to cover up. I think it should be a choice, but the veil itself is not a bad thing. Question: Do you think women get much respect in a culture full of porn/stripclubs etc. Women are people who were not put on this earth to be stared at. Covering up is the Islamic way of dealing with that. Just my (long!) personal opinion

But can't a woman look at a man lustfully?

If so, why don't men wear veils?

Former Member

You're right, I never thought of that before. I think the Koran says that both men and women have to dress modestly. I don't know why men don't have to cover their heads. If anyone knows get back to us!

Former Member

In their religious belief women should not be seen by other people so they keep covered up it is only the husbands who see what the women look like underneath and this religion goes back years .... males on the other hand can do as they please and white is a sign of purity so perhaps that is why men would wear that colour.

Former Member

This probably won`t be a popular point of view and maybe noone will understand it at all, but anyway...

I live in a very culturally mixed area, and when I take the children to school in the morning I see quite a lot of mums in the playground wearing full burquas. Now, I can understand how people might think it`s oppressive and all, sometimes I feel that way myself. Especially in 90 degree heat, which admittedly we don`t get often in this country.

But then there are other times when I actually envy these women! For a while I can see how it could almost be liberating, not having to be so bloody concerned about appearance all the time. There are plenty of mornings when I would love to be able to just stick something over my head and not worry about it. Maybe there`s a culturally specific side to this that we just don`t get? I agree that women who don`t want to wear them shouldn`t be forced to though.

There are also many mums at my childrens` school who wear a headscarf, as pnj said. And by the way, not all burquas are black.

Former Member

I understand and totally agree.

Former Member

I agree Miffy i can understand why some would want to wear it it is the lack of choice in many societies that i find objectionable.

maybe you should get one...........:)

Former Member

Originally posted by Toadborg
maybe you should get one...........:)

Tempting. Very tempting. But people would think I had lost my marbles, plus I`d probably end up collecting someone else`s kids from school! (How would the teacher know it was me? In fact how do the teachers know who the hell is under any of them?!)

Former Member

Good point, its a wonder the Daily mail haven't started a campaign to ban burqas as a security concern in schools..............