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Capitalism Is Evil
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Here are some popular myths about capitalism exploded:
Capitalism supports freedom: Capitalist states tolerate dissent that doesn't challenge their power - especially their economic power. When groups really start to question that power, the full force of the state is brought to bear. Look at what happened in the Miners' Srike in 1984-85.
As for being restrained in their use of torture etc., people were tortured in Genoa just last month. Italy is not some rogue country miles away, it is a developed capitalist state at the heart of Europe.
Capitalism encourages science In fact, just the opposite is the case. Scientists are obliged to hide discoveries from their peers, since those discoveries may make money for their paymasters. Human DNA is being patented for profit. Research in universities is increasingly funded by big business and focussed on discoveries that will make money rather than benefit people.
Scientists who speak out - such as the Leeds academic who initially raised the question of BSE jumping the species barrier to cause CJD, or the scientist whose results suggested GM food may cause health problems - are discredited and osracised.
Capitalism can be socially progressive Capitalist states were forced to accept the things you list because of the actions of ordinary people. Many women's rights for example were won by large mass movements (of both sexes) in the late 1960s. The NF, with its racist ideas, was broken in the late 1970s by large anti-Nazi demonstrations, specifically at Lewisham when anti-Nazis broke through police lines and dispersed an NF march.
There is a class war going on. The balance of class forces is sometimes in their favour, sometimes in ours. When the latter is the case, we can force concessions.
Capitalism is fun the surface, capitalist societies are rich. But if you look more closely at the way wealth is distributed you can see that the gap between rich and poor is getting wider all the time.
It's true that capitalism has brought benefits - no one need starve today because crops fail, as was the case with feudalism which came before capitalism. But with those benefits has come massive misery for many people - longer working hours for poverty pay. What we need is a society where the huge benefits of collective labour are shared out fairly.
Capitalism is stable In fact, capitalism is intrinsically unstable. This is a result of the system not being planned and the drive for profit on the part of the capitalists themselves.
In the late 1990s there was a shortage of computer chips, and as a result they fetched a high price. Seeing the chance of a big profit, many firms built huge state-of-the-art factories to manufacture the chips. This resulted in over-production and the price of the chips fell through the floor. Since there was no more profit to be made, the state-of-the-art factories closed down even though they'd only been open a year, and thousands of jobs were lost. And remember the factories shut down not because everyone had a computer and there was no more need for the factories, but because of a lack of profit.
There have been many crises in capitalism in the recent past. The East Asian capitalist economies used to be praised as "tiger economies" and an example we should all follow. In 1998 the Japanese economy collapsed - the second biggest economy in the world - and it's still teetering on the brink. In Indonesia there was a revolution as a result of the mayhem of the market.
The dominant ideas in society are the ideas of the ruling class, Marx said. The ruling class control the means of production of ideas and they want us to believe that there is no alternative to capitalism. But when these ideas contradict what people experience themselves (eg that capitalism is shit and another world is possible), then there is the potential for people to fight back and win a better society.
Capitalism supports freedom: Capitalist states tolerate dissent that doesn't challenge their power - especially their economic power. When groups really start to question that power, the full force of the state is brought to bear. Look at what happened in the Miners' Srike in 1984-85.
As for being restrained in their use of torture etc., people were tortured in Genoa just last month. Italy is not some rogue country miles away, it is a developed capitalist state at the heart of Europe.
Capitalism encourages science In fact, just the opposite is the case. Scientists are obliged to hide discoveries from their peers, since those discoveries may make money for their paymasters. Human DNA is being patented for profit. Research in universities is increasingly funded by big business and focussed on discoveries that will make money rather than benefit people.
Scientists who speak out - such as the Leeds academic who initially raised the question of BSE jumping the species barrier to cause CJD, or the scientist whose results suggested GM food may cause health problems - are discredited and osracised.
Capitalism can be socially progressive Capitalist states were forced to accept the things you list because of the actions of ordinary people. Many women's rights for example were won by large mass movements (of both sexes) in the late 1960s. The NF, with its racist ideas, was broken in the late 1970s by large anti-Nazi demonstrations, specifically at Lewisham when anti-Nazis broke through police lines and dispersed an NF march.
There is a class war going on. The balance of class forces is sometimes in their favour, sometimes in ours. When the latter is the case, we can force concessions.
Capitalism is fun the surface, capitalist societies are rich. But if you look more closely at the way wealth is distributed you can see that the gap between rich and poor is getting wider all the time.
It's true that capitalism has brought benefits - no one need starve today because crops fail, as was the case with feudalism which came before capitalism. But with those benefits has come massive misery for many people - longer working hours for poverty pay. What we need is a society where the huge benefits of collective labour are shared out fairly.
Capitalism is stable In fact, capitalism is intrinsically unstable. This is a result of the system not being planned and the drive for profit on the part of the capitalists themselves.
In the late 1990s there was a shortage of computer chips, and as a result they fetched a high price. Seeing the chance of a big profit, many firms built huge state-of-the-art factories to manufacture the chips. This resulted in over-production and the price of the chips fell through the floor. Since there was no more profit to be made, the state-of-the-art factories closed down even though they'd only been open a year, and thousands of jobs were lost. And remember the factories shut down not because everyone had a computer and there was no more need for the factories, but because of a lack of profit.
There have been many crises in capitalism in the recent past. The East Asian capitalist economies used to be praised as "tiger economies" and an example we should all follow. In 1998 the Japanese economy collapsed - the second biggest economy in the world - and it's still teetering on the brink. In Indonesia there was a revolution as a result of the mayhem of the market.
The dominant ideas in society are the ideas of the ruling class, Marx said. The ruling class control the means of production of ideas and they want us to believe that there is no alternative to capitalism. But when these ideas contradict what people experience themselves (eg that capitalism is shit and another world is possible), then there is the potential for people to fight back and win a better society.
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Comments
I suppose socialism or communism would be better then right? Course it would...
Capitalism works!
[This message has been edited by Sean_K (edited 02-09-2001).]
Bollocks. You were there were you ?
If you want to go and riot, trash, loot etc you have to play by "the big boys rules" if you get caught tough shit.
peacechild
And if I show you my dark side
will you still hold me tonight
and if I open my heart to you
and show you my weak side
what would you do
But in practice it doesnt work like that, Capitalism is the form of government that best suits human nature, the desire to be at the top, to be in charge or to be the most powerful.
As long as human beings are selfish and decide they want to be in charge capitalism will be the only form of economic system that will work. Those at the top survive while those at the bottom perish.
Whowhere, you talk as if there is no alternative to capitalism. Of course there is. A system where goods are produced for need and not profit and where then means of production are under democratic workers control. Under such a system people would be much better off as instead of people working to make profits for the few they would only be working to produce what was needed therefore there would be less work to do and no one would go without. Capitalism is only kept in place by the ruling class who keep the workers divided to stop them rising up and overthrowing capitalism.
thing is, this style of capitalism has become so far advanced since the end of WW2, that it has begun to assume a political life of its own. this is where the system (capitalism in pure form is quite a neat idea really) breaks down, and progress only occurs for a limited section of the population. hence, we have the anti-capitalist backlash.
however, in truth what they are fighting is corporationism - the subversion of entire states, not just people, to the will of huge conglomerate multinationals. this is where capitalism has evolved - it now exists separately from the system of its origin.
what we need to do is find a way of re-tethering the corporations to a political system, before the MNCs shackle governments to corporationism. otherwise they will continue to operate beyond the boundraies of normal law and democracy. whether this takes the form of a major re-examination and reconstitution of our political framework, or a more stringent set of controls on the actions of business depends on which way the struggle goes.
i do agree that this is one of the greatest problems the developed world has faced in half a century. but, i think we need to work within the system to bring about alterations, rather than fighting against it from outside, when all that will be seen is violence.
so, we really need a different form of capitalism that will do away with rampant corporationism.
CAPITALISM IS DEAD, LONG LIVE CAPITALISM (kinda thing)
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Diesel
88888888
in what way?! if you mean 'different methods of oppressing the people, one by subtle means and one by not-so-subtle' then you could be right in some cases. if not, then you've lost me completely <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif">
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Sean_K, capitalism doesn't work that is why there are millions starving in the third world and why capitalism goes from boom to bust which results in economic collapse, as happened in 1929 when the New York stock market crashed causing widspread panic around the world and plunging millions into poverty. Economic slumps that are a feature of capitalism prove that it does not work.
Funny that more people are starving in countries that claim not to be capitilist than in countries that are...
The fundamental point that you fail to see is that those very same workers WANT to make a profit..Show me a man who says he doesnt want to better himself and Ill show you a damned liar.
Its not human nature to want to be equal. People WANT to get rich, people WANT better houses, people WANT better cars.
People are greedy materialistic scum..Thats plain for all to see.
As for the torture? of the 'protesters' in Italy..Well its a shame they only got a few of them...If they think they can bring down capitalism by destroying the property of the people of Genoa then they deserve to be beaten senseless.
works for me bub.
Let me get this straight..you are saying capitalism doesnt work because people are starving in countries where capitalism doesnt exist. You are also saying that because there was a crash in 1929 capitalism is flawed?....I havent noticed a economic crash anywhere near that severity since then. Wanna tell me exactly how long capitalism had been running when the 1929 thing happened?
Im sure the people and workers of the SSSR would agree that communism really sucks..Exactly how many died under that socialist regime? 40? 50 million?
"An Englishman's never so natural as when he's holding his tongue." --Henry James
Are you honestly trying to tell me all that were there were peaceful and law abiding ?
peacechild
Trash the power of modern corporations all you want, that doesn't bother me.
But don't you dare criticise capitalism as a way of life until and unless you've read Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations cover to cover.
If and when you do, you will see that commerce is inevitable, that capitalism will prevail in absolute form. The "moderations" are not restraints put by society on the companies: they are examples of the companies doing whatever is necessary to make themselves popular i.e. good at their business.
Mackenzie, While capitalism is in place it benefits the bosses the most. Most of the wealth produced under capitalism goes to the bosses and the big companies in profits.
Whowhere, I know that we have a safety net under capitalism but capitalism will ignore social needs if they conflict with that of profit. All workers suffer from its madness, but the old and infirm seem to be its worst victims.
Why not to put here examples about inhumanity of capitalism and radical solutions to these problems. It is estimated that 4.3 mln households in England alone were living in cold, damp and health-hazardous conditions. Around 30 000 winter deaths, mainly among elderly or disabled people and children, are linked with "fuel poverty".
BUT, if capitalism is so evil, so wrong, youd better turn off your capitalist computer, sell your capitalist mobile phone, give your capitalist trainers (sneakers) to charity, and close your capitalist bank account.
Capitalism is not ideal, and in many cases quite wromng, but there is no real laternative- communism DOES NOT WORK. Russia, China, Cuba....no equality there. People cant be equal, why be a brain surgeon when for the same pay you can stack shelves in Morrisons?
It matters not who won or lost, but how you place the blame.
There is an alternative to capitalism which is socialism. Where the means of production are democratically controlled by the workers. It is the workers who produce all the wealth under capitalism not the bosses. It the workers who produce all the goods so your argument about not using anything produced under capitalism is wrong as these good could still be produced under socialism.
in china, the standard of living has rocketed immesurably since 49, and the same in cuba since 59. they may not have anywhere near the same freedoms as we in the 'west' do, but they would probably both be far closer to the bottom of the development ladder were it not for communism.
i'm not defending communism as a system, but i have respect for what it has achieved in terms of progress in those countries under communist rule. the rise in living conditions may not have been as accelerated as in the developed capitalist nations, but i'd say they havent done too badly for themselves.
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
But what is the point? Consumer goods are a mark of capitalist society, so why would socialists want to create them anyway?
Whowhere, socialists would produce goods that are needed. If there was a need to produce a certain type of product then it would be produced.
In theory, any decently thought out political system could work, but no theory can be applied to the real world with a perfect conversion as it comes up against human nature. Humans want to better themselves and compare and contrast their situation to others (see Celebrities, Obsession With) and what system does that better than capitalism?? Communism/socialism on the other hand works to the theory that all are equal, even though this is not true. Somewhere down the line someone will have more power than others, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Anyway Steelgate, I thought you said you were banned?? http://www.urban75.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=004114&p=2
Only users lose drugs
Sorry but thats a stupid thing to say. What if you were at a football match and one of the supporters on your side threw a punch. Would you deserve to have the shit kicked out of you by the police?
If I were organising the violence and if I were in a building tooled up with knives, bats, pickaxes etc then yes I do deserve to have the shit kicked outta me.
If they were just the poor little media centre or whatever they claimed to be then WHY THE HELL WERE THEY CARRYING SO MANY FRICKIN WEAPONS
"An Englishman's never so natural as when he's holding his tongue." --Henry James
Even the Italian government is saying that the police went too far and attacked peaceful protestors with no justification so the question still stands – do you think its acceptable for the police to attack you, for the actions of a vary small minority of your group?
Police attack
The police may have gone in heavy handed but they had a little more than penknives and workmans tools that were there already. Notice they didnt deny the weapons were theirs but rather that they had no violent intentions..
If they were innocent peaceful protesters then it was out of order..If they were the ones participating in the violent attacks against the property of the people of Genoa then they deserved all they got..and then some. Whether they were involved in violence is in dispute.
My answer still stands....If I were involved in the violence and the place I was living in was loaded with weapons then yes.
You can say they werent involved all you want but they were tooled up . We will never know the truth because we werent there..I would take the word of the police over the word of a group caught with lots of weapons any day.
[This message has been edited by Steelgate (edited 04-09-2001).]
Ah I see..renovate many buildings with petrol bombs do you? Workmen DO NOT leave their tools around in buildings that are going to be in the middle of huge demonstrations. Can you think of a more inconspicuous weapon than a common tool?
I suppose you think the guy who was shot was just a peaceful protester as well right?
Also click here to the truth about the protester that was shot dead.
Aha I see, so now they are weapons? I believe they werent planted because the protesters holed up there did not dispute their being there. The weapons were found in and among the protesters. If they were planted by the plod dont you think at least one of the protesters might have mentioned it.
Ambulances in advance is a sign that extreme violence is going to be used???? There is an ambulance that parks itself next to the police cars in my town each friday night, does that mean the police are going to start cracking skulls? Or does it mean they are taking precautions? The police had information that violent protesters were in this building, they had ambulances there in case either they or the protesters were hurt.
ROFL...you really need to start reading some unbiased news sources. That 'article'? is just the opinions of one of his own group of socialist/anarchists whatever..I dont read Italian so I cant read the entire site but its clear what kind of site it is.
With those photos I can make a mockup of events that make it seem like he was doing anything.
holding a fire extinuisher in front of his face in defence..please
"An Englishman's never so natural as when he's holding his tongue." --Henry James
Lets not forget the other peaceful protesters also helping the police by wearing helmets and masks and offering them clubs and other weapons to help them reverse their landrover.
Lets be clear about this if that mob had got to those policemen they WOULD have killed them. So stop whining when this "peaceful" lad in his mask carrying weapons gets killed.
Tough shit. If you can't take a joke you shouldn't have joined.
YOU WOULDN'T KNOW THE TRUTH IF IT GOT UP AND BIT YOU.
peacechild
[This message has been edited by peacechild (edited 04-09-2001).]
[This message has been edited by peacechild (edited 04-09-2001).]