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Cassius Clay was not made to fight at all. In fact, he made a choice not to do so, and went to jail instead. One of the things I admire the man for. But he made the choice, no one forced him into it.
The politics of division? Class warfare? Replace nationalism with classes, all that the "dilectic" really does. Wake up. If you put half as much energy into your life as you do into this argument, you'd find capitalism a very suitable system.
Maybe the German people were all for it because of their own hard ships, but that doesn't explain why we went into the war. If your theory is true then there would never be wars, for the simple reason that a war costs money, a full scale war would cost us trillions of pounds, much more than we would gain from winning.
WW2 was fought for several reasons, firstly was defence. If we didnt go to war Britain would have been crushed along with the other countries of Europe, leaving Russia, then eventually the USA to fight alone. Even the USa would not have been able to withstand an assault by a victorious German army, who's troops had much needed battle experience.
The second reason we went to war was to halt Hitler's expansion into our and our allies territories, territory we needed to supply our nation with food and raw materials.
Thirdly, we went to war because the people supported it, they saw that the Nazi regime was wrong and wanted to destroy it, in order to stop from being exposed to it.
Britain had slaughtered millions around the world by empire building and Hitler wanted to be left alone to do the same in eastern europe.
This threatened Britains position as a world power so it declared war on Germany. The British government told everyone that it was a war against fascism, but it had done nothing when Spain fell to fascism and since world war two has supported brutal regimes around the world from Pinochets regime in Chile to Saddam Husseins' Iraq before the gulf war and president suharto of Indonesia who invaded east timor in 1975 killing a quarter of the population in the civil war following the invasion. The reall reason was to defend the interests of the British ruling class and to defend the British empire. That was why troops were sent out to the far east during world war two to defend Britains colonies in east asia.
During world war two Britain killed millions by the mass bombing of German cities like Dresden and Hamburg. But refused calls to bomb the railway lines leading to Auschwitz, and refused to allow all but a handful of jewish refugees into Britain. The holocaust only started after the war started. Before that Jews had been persecuted but no plan of mass extermination drawn up. After the war thousands of German prisoners of war and German civilians starved to death in prisoner of war camps due to food shortages.
World war two was largely won not by the west but by the soviet union which was just as brutal a regime as Hitlers Germany and occupied eastern europe.
[This message has been edited by Steelgate (edited 03-09-2001).]
Well if it was his choice he wouldn't have been in gaol! The point still stands - fight for us or face the consequences!
I'm sure his life expectancy was greater in jail than it was in Vietnam. It's unbelievable how many people don't give a damn about politics and the morality of war until it's their ass on the line. For an oppressed people he's sure living better than this white man.
"I'd rather have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it."
Have you ever wondered what happened to those men who signed the Declaration of Independence?
Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died. Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons in the Revolutionary Army, another had two sons captured. Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or the hardships of the Revolutionary War.
What kind of men were they? Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners, men of means, well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured.
They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor.
Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags.
Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward.
Vandals or soldiers or both, looted the properties of Ellery, Clymer, Hall, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.
At the Battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis, had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. The owner quietly urged General George Washington to open fire, which was done. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.
Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.
John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his grist mill were laid waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home after the war to find his wife dead, his children vanished. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart.
Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates.
"I'd rather have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it."
[This message has been edited by Mr_Perfect (edited 05-09-2001).]
During the Blitz the working class should have ingored the ruling class and refused to fight. I'm sure then the Germans would have eventually gone away. <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/biggrin.gif"> You crack me up.
"I'd rather have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it."
[This message has been edited by Mr_Perfect (edited 05-09-2001).]
What makes you think the Germans weren't going to invade Britain after the rest of Europe had fallen?
"I'd rather have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it."
Also what do you mean fly to Moscow, I have told people time and time again that eastern europe was never communist. More like a trynnical dictatorship than communist and wasn't the point of world war two to save europe from tyranny yet half of europe fell to Soviet Russia, so it kind of defeated the purpose of world war two didn't it. Plus there were 55 million dead and half of europe in ruins, and millions of refugees.
"I'd rather have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it."
peacechild
Anyway – where has anyone said that we shouldn’t have fought the Nazis then? Could you point it out for me please? All I can see is statements that to start a war when your country or people are not oppressed is morally wrong and the only reason to do so is for selfish gain.
That's the job of an elected government, fool! If they constantly acted in accordance with the wishes of the people there would be no need to elect them!
I hope you've read enough history to note that the only pure democracies in this ickle planet's meagre history have been
(a) small;
(b) violent;
(c) short-lived.
Find me a complete counter-example and I'll be quite impressed with you.
I was going to rip a new a$$hole for steelegate, but the work has all ready been done. I have a better Idea for you Steelegate, move to China or Cuba. I'm sure they would love you <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/biggrin.gif">
That has never happened in any country that has called itself communist.
[This message has been edited by Steelgate (edited 06-09-2001).]
Show me a true socialist country before you tell someone to “pack up and head for one” and I’ll be impressed.
The Greeks were democratic, but not to todays standards (no vote for women, the poor, slaves etc), but still pretty revolutionary considering how long ago that system was in place.
Women would only throw the bit of clay in the wrong pot anyway <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/wink.gif">
Grown up for god's sake. The world will NEVER be a rosy as you believe it can be, because not every one agrees with you. That fact, on it's own, is enough to ensure that you're ideal world will fail.
As for the arms race. People will always fight, they will always want better weapons that their enemy and someone will make them. So it has always been, and so it will remain.
[This message has been edited by Steelgate (edited 14-09-2001).]
There are approximately 4 BILLION people on this planet, if 500 million agreed with you - they would STILL be outnumbered 7-1.
So 300,000 went to Genoa, in this country alone we have a population of 56m - so an equivalent of 0.5% of our population demonstrated. Hardly a huge movement then.
I think BBH summed it up (and it's not often that WE agree), in the world the are countries with HUGE arsenals who would do everything they could to stop you. Including the Islamic Extreemists who attacked the US. You and your unarmed cronies (after weapons are bad) would have to stand up against these people and a petition and placard won't stop an RPG.
Here is a link to a good activist website Schnews.
We obviously have differing opinions on what is huge - 300,000 people is pissant compared to the worlds population. You have a SERIOSULY long way to go.
Have you asked 'the workers' if this is what they want? What kind of democracy are you looking for if you 'smash capitalism' first and THEN find out what people want?
Take a look at this site dude. How many here have given you the impression that they WANT to live under a socialist state? How many do you think would fight tooth and nail to STOP a socialist state? How do you think you could IMPOSE a socialist state on these people?