France to be kicked out of NATO?

Former Member

Jack Straw mentioned that France might be kicked out of NATO over the whole Iraq thing. As I understand it, militarily they aren't part of it...since the '60s they haven't contributed troops. Is that true? And is this a good idea?

Former Member

The French had troops in Bosnia.

Kicking the French out of NATO over this is a complete exaggeration of the events of the last few months and is an emotional knee-jerk reaction to matters which are by definition, supposed to be objective.

Former Member

I doubt they would be kicked out; something so obvious would create a major diplomatic incident and jeopardise trade etc...

Former Member

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Former Member

Originally posted by girl with sharp teeth
if they managed to kick france out, what would they do about germany? about turkey? russia?

Xacterly

Former Member

France should not be kicked out just because it opposed United States, France as a soverign state had the right to voice it's oppostition. The charter of the alliance states that an attack on one is an attack on all. The war on Iraq does not meet criteria as Iraq as a state had not attacked the United States so France had the right to refuse to take part

Former Member

France cannot be kicked out for this, NATO is a defence mechanism not an offensive mechanism. NATO was set up to defend countries against the eastern bloc, it was not set up for attacks against other sovereign states.

France had no obligation to support the USA in a war without legitimacy- if Iraq had declared war on the US it would be different, but they did not so it is not.

Read your history books little boy, you know nothing of this world.

Former Member

France withdrew from military participation in NATO a long time ago. The membership of NATO can withdraw membership from any other member as they see fit, and it wouldn't surprise me to see France have its membership in NATO revoked. They are no longer a valid participant, haven't been since 1991, and that is reality.

Former Member

Is there no room whatsoever for the possibility that apart from the oil and arms deals France was also concerned about the legality of going to war in such circumstances and the consequences of war for the Iraqi people then Ilson?

Jack Straw would be wise to keep his mouth shut. At the moment there are much better reasons to expel the Britain and the US from the United Nations than France from NATO. Not that France should be terribly concerned about being out of that has-been dinosaur organisation.

Former Member

Fair question. I believe Britain was. IMHO he was misguided, arrogant and obnoxious but I believe Blair acted because he thought it was the best thing to do for the Iraqis. As for the US government... well I won't pretend that nobody in office cares one bit about other human beings... but the track record of the US administration for the last five decades suggests they are very well prepared to ignore all sort of atrocities suffered by civilians so long as the situation suits their geopolitical goals. In Iraq in particular they didn't have any problems whatsoever with human right abuses for 20 years, and I very much doubt Dubya woke up one morning and thought "oh my god, what have we done? Those poor Iraqis, we must liberate them immediately".

Former Member

I would disagree with your about how the countries have been left standing to the world. I agree that Britain has come out of it relatively well as massive troop casualties have been avoided and the war hasn't dragged on.

The US is a different story as the world continues to view their motivations for the war with great skepticism, even more so now than before the war started. The only thing that has been proven is that the US military machine is awesome- but this will be more of a worry than anything else to many. The absence of WMDs and links with terrorism, and the pathetic weakness of Iraq's army go to reinforce that America moved in with completely ulterior motives. And their continuing warmongering, bullying stance- telling France they will "regret" opposing America, and warning Syria, Iran and North Korea that they could be next- will if anything continue to alienate America from the rest of the world.

As for 'Old Europe', they sure took a popularity battering in the US and to a lesser extent in Britain. But there is a different view elsewhere. Rightly or wrongly Chirac is more popular than ever amongst the French for standing up to the bully US administration (a popularity Tony Blair would kill for), and third countries certainly view France and Germany with different eyes to the US'.

Bear in mind that a majority of the world- both at government and at public levels- were against the war and deeply resented the US and Britain going ahead with it and raising to fingers to the world. Even Spain, a country that has been rabidly supporting the war, has a staggering 91% of the population against the war. These people view France and Germany as an example, and the US and British governments as deeply wrong and misguided. I suspect the feeling is shared elsewhere.

Former Member

Originally posted by Aladdin
Is there no room whatsoever for the possibility that apart from the oil and arms deals France was also concerned about the legality of going to war in such circumstances and the consequences of war for the Iraqi people?

You mean like their concern about the Ivory Coast?

Former Member

Originally posted by Greenhat
You mean like their concern about the Ivory Coast?

What IS happening in the Ivory Coast? I googled it and it seems like nothings happening?

Former Member

Ivory Coast

Former Member

Originally posted by Greenhat
Ivory Coast

My god. It looks like Iraq all over again! Why have the media not been reporting it more?

Former Member

Originally posted by Simbelyne
My god. It looks like Iraq all over again! Why have the media not been reporting it more?

All over again? Ivory Coast was first.

Former Member

germany? about turkey? russia

Girl with sharp teeth. They didn't do what France did. France's diplomats gave information since 911 to Saddam regarding the US plans to attack Iraq or whether we knew about their ties to Al Qaeda. This changes everything. I wondered why Russia lost one of its big contracts to develop oil while France kept theirs. France was in fact an allie of Iraq. Thank God for the character of Bush and Blair as well as our information gathering and military capabilities.

It's up to you people to decide what you want your country to do. I'm glad my country is distancing itself from France. Bush won't even stay in France for the G8 summit. He's staying in Switzerland and driving over the border to the summit.

Former Member

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
Girl with sharp teeth. They didn't do what France did. France's diplomats gave information since 911 to Saddam regarding the US plans to attack Iraq or whether we knew about their ties to Al Qaeda. This changes everything.

I wouldn't be so quick to make conclusions. The authenticity of those documents remains to be seen, and many questions about how exactly journos came across them remain unanswered. Only 2 months ago the US and Britain were presenting false and doctored documentation to the UN. So it wouldn't be exactly without precedent...

But anyway, Galloway, France, WMDs... one by one all the "enemies" of Bush and Blair and unproved accusations are suddenly being sorted out by these remarkable finds. Surely a coincidence?

Bush won't even stay in France for the G8 summit. He's staying in Switzerland and driving over the border to the summit.

I'm sure the French are utterly devastated at not having that man bedding down for the night in French soil.

Former Member

I hope you're not suggesting that the actions of 4 or 5 scumbags represent the views of a whole nation.

There is a svastika painted on a wall near where I live. Are we all Nazis now?

Former Member

but 1/3 of France was rooting for Saddam in the war...from Le Monde. Now that's their right but...it's our right not to trust them.