British Intelligence collusion with Loyalist Paramilitaries confirmed

Former Member

I was just reading the following articles:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/0417/finucane.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/2954773.stm

http://www.u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=31298&pt=n

Isn't interesting to see, that Britain itself is not the greatest protector of human rights....

I find it shocking to see that the British government allowed intelligence services to get involved in collusion with known loyalist paramilitary groups during the late 1980's, many innocent catholics were killed, thanks to information passed on by British intelligence sources. What a fair society we live in!! Imagine if this had happened in any other part of the UK?? The uproar that would result from it.

I am disappointed by the British government over this. But not surprised, as this all happened during the thatcher years.....:rolleyes:

Does anyone else agree that this certainly deserves a judicial enquiry?

Former Member

An excellent film that speaks to that era of N.I. backroom dealing and coverups is Hidden Agenda. I highly recommend you go rent it if you havent already seen it. Somewhat dramatized but at its root it's based on much of what you are pointing out here.

Former Member

Must have a little look for it here Clandestine, cheers. Although some of those films about Northern Ireland leave much to be desired!!

Accents for a start!! and more importantly - glaring historical errors, but thats what happens when Hollywood does History!!

I hope this inquiry doesn't lead to more trouble on the streets back home, they always start going a bit mad around this time of year - the start of the marching season.

Can only hope the IRA will make the gesture needed, Unionist will accept it at long last and the Northern Ireland assembly can get back up and running again....there is a lot to be said for the benefits devloution can bring to NI.

Still its going to be interesting to see how the government spins its way out of this one. Or perhaps they will just put there hands up and say "Fair cop g'uv, dont blame us, blame that maggie one..."

Former Member

Jon, as a Catholic English American I take these reports with a grain of salt. To coincide with the decision to support America in the liberation of Iraq, the BBC had this report on the IRA's fund raising in America. He made it sound like funds were raised openly in Catholic churches across America. They were not. First of all that would be illegal. Second of all it wouldn't even be the best way to go because the IRA would get more money by saying it was for the poor of Ireland or even Europe. Thirdly one of thecore values of America, thanks to its English forefathers, is separation of church and state. People really believe in that.

So I believe if the BBC was wrong about that, they are exaggerating this too.

Did some people in either governments raise funds along religious lines. Probably? Was it institutionalized in some way? I don't buy it. We learned in school to figure out the truth via logic. And logically, just as was the case with the Catholics, Prostestants could raise more money by simply saying it was for the poor.

Former Member

PNJ - I think you have got the wrong end of the stick here. As far as I know the report posted above doesn't deal with the raising of IRA funds in the USA. Sorry for the confusion

The first link is from Radioi Telefis Eireann (RTE) the Irish state broadcaster, second from BBC and third from UTV, which is a Northern Ireland based broadcaster which makes up part of British Independent Television (ITV) - just so you know the background to the sources of the reports...

anyway, what this story relates to incidents in the late 1980's in Northern Ireland. The catalyst for the Stevens Inquiry is linked to the murder of a Roman Catholic lawyer (Pat Finucane) who had represented persons on terrorism charges or known links with the IRA. This in itself was not a crime. However he was murdered by loyalist paramilitaries and left a wife and children behind (same sad story was repeated across Northern Ireland in many catholic and protestant homes, and the homes of many British soliders and police officers as well). It has since come to light that British Intelligence colluded with loyalist paramilitaries (called so because of their loyalty to the crown) in the murder of Pat Finucane and there are hints that the collusion may have happened in a number of other cases as well.

Just goes to show you what happens behind the scenes in your own country. Of course the IRA is certainly just as guilty, but then again they are an illegal parlamilitary grouping with no morals, whereas the other, it would certainly appear, is the Intelligence service of what should be a democratic government, who also acted without morals.

But Northern Ireland has always been a complicated place, unfortunately not many people are interested in what goes on there any more and I doubt if this event will really lift so much as an eyebrow in mainland UK. Had something like this happened in England or Wales though, could you imagine the outcry???

Former Member

The Uk's record in NI is abominable, as is the IRA's. But to truly understand why the UK cannot pull out read a book called 'The Strange Death Of Liberal England'. It explains in the first few chapters why, even though Parliament wanted/wants to pullout of NI it can't.

Former Member

JonBoi, the film I mentioned wasnt made in Hollywood as far as I recall it is a British production.

Former Member

They couldn't pull out anyway, can you imagine the anarchy that would develop.

Although it is the goal of Irish Republicans to obtain a united Ireland there is still a majority (surprisingly on both sides of the sectarian divide) who would still prefer to remain part of the United Kingdom. The British government needs to follow the wishes of the majority of people.

I think at this stage, the best way forward is the restoration of devolution and closer cross-border cooperation through the cross-border bodies, this is the best way to please both sides of the community.

I am lucky enough to come from a mixed family (mum's catholic, dad is protestant) and although I feel Irish, I do feel a shared culture and identity with most other people that have grown up in the UK.

If I were to vote on a referendum to join a united Ireland or remain part of the UK. I really don't know which way I would vote.
Its a very personal choice I feel, but at the end of the day, as long as there is peace at home and you can go on a night out in Belfast without fear of being jumped by hoods because of your religion (it does still happen in some places) or being stopped by police and army patrols....

Former Member

Originally posted by Clandestine
JonBoi, the film I mentioned wasnt made in Hollywood as far as I recall it is a British production.

Cool, well I'll keep an eye out for it. Might be good viewing!

Former Member

It came out back in the early 90's (again if I recall rightly). It deals with much the same sort of underhanded dealings by the Ulster Constabulary in cahoots with British Intelligence to overturn the Labour government of the 70's and bring in Thatcher.

Former Member

I know the Bill of Rights UK says that the monarch of the UK must be Prostestant. And I understand the Queen is the head of the Church too. But I still wonder if that kind of law should just be stricken. Because apparently, it seems to still give rise or justification to prejudice.

Former Member

Simbelyne - can you broadly sum up why the book says we can't pull out of Northern Ireland?

PNJ - the whole point of the Catholic clause was to be discriminatory, the elites in England have always been Protestant and from the Tudor era (1485) until after the Glorious Revolution (1688) (maybe even beyond) there was widespread and vocal anti-Catholicism, heightened by the internal problems within the Tudor family - The issue only really occurred after Henry VIII created the Church of England because the Pope wouldn't grant him a divorce and so created Protestantism in England. Incidentally the monarch is the head of the Church of England and still is meaning the Church and State are intertwined. Protestant Edward VI (or to be more accurate those who were running the country on his behalf as he was only 9 when he came to the throne) wanted to convert England to Protestantism and encouraged it, while Mary I when she came to the throne actively encouraged Catholicism while burning Protestants at the stake while Elizabeth I encouraged Protestantism which has been the case ever since. The establishment became ever more Protestant and then there was briefly a Catholic king James II (if I remember correctly) who was deposed when Parliament brought over King William of Orange with his wife Mary to rule as a joint monarchy and it was after this Glorious Revolution (in which there was no bloodshed hence called Glorious) that the monarchy has always taken a back seat to Parliament. So basically the monarch has been forbidden to be or to marry a Catholic because of the prejudices of the establishment and it is unfair and there is often talk to repealing it but I don't think we'll see that until the Queen's gone and we either become a Republic or have King Charles III.

Former Member

Re: British Intelligence collusion with Loyalist Paramilitaries confirmed

Originally posted by JonBoi
Imany innocent catholics were killed

I'd be interested to know how many innocent people (including catholics) were killed by the IRA. Unfoprtunately people like McGuinness and Adams will prevent us from ever finding out.

Does anyone else agree that this certainly deserves a judicial enquiry?

Yes, to an extent, but it would need to cover the actions of both sides and not lead to criminal convictions - such as the commission set up in South Africa following the end to apartheid.

Originally posted by PNJ
First of all that would be illegal. Second of all it wouldn't even be the best way to go because the IRA would get more money by saying it was for the poor of Ireland or even Europe. Thirdly one of thecore values of America, thanks to its English forefathers, is separation of church and state. People really believe in that.

Sometime I love your innocence, mano.

Only in the US would they have you believe that NORAID was anything other than a fundraising organisation for the IRA. Partly because it would show that the US was (and is) a place where terrorism is funded. Kind of embarrasing in light of the WoT wouldn't you say?

I know the Bill of Rights UK

Something which we don't have. Although you are right to say that our monarch cannot be Catholic.

Former Member

JP in the three years I have known you I have told you repeatedly that this

Because apparently, it seems to still give rise or justification to prejudice

had no effect on Britons and we couldn't give a shit really.

It's good that Britain was working for peace in Ulster. Having been to Ulster many times I can tell you that attricion is the only road to peace. Especially since most loyalist paramilitaries and nationalists terrorist organisations are mainly drug runners. The rest of Britain doesn't recognise that we Irish are a different breed to the rest of Britain. For one we're 100 times more proud and 100 times more stubborn.

For God and Ulster!