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What would make you eat your words on the war?

SystemSystem Posts: 8,649 Staff Team
Blatantly lifted from another place, but it's a good question so I thought I'd post it here.

What would make you eat your words about the war on Iraq? What event, whether you're pro or against the war, would make you admit you were wrong about your stance in the war?

I'd eat my words if proof was found that Iraq posed an imminent and clear threat to other nations- for example if plans were discovered about a forthcoming unprovoked attack by Iraq on another country, or if it was proven that Saddam had provided Al Qaeda with WMDs.
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Id have to concur with those conditions. Since the invasion itself was not precipitated by Iraq's invasion of any other sovereign state most of what happens now short of use of chemical/nuclear weapons concretely proven to have been used by Saddam in this conflict would not change my view that we are in the wrong here.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Im not sure to be honest...

    If there were conclusive proof that he didnt have WMD and didnt pose a threat to us, I think I would still probably be glad about the removal of Saddam. Whether or not you believe that to be a motivation of the war, youve gotta admit its a good side effect.

    I suppose if it turns out that Saddam doesnt pose a thread and the Iraqi people actually wanted him in power, then that would make me eat my words totally.

    There are lots of things, some of which have happened already, that make me think hard about the war and do push me further toward opposing it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A hard one...I don't think anything would make me pro this war or pro any war....I guess if there was irrefutable evidence that saddam was about to fire nuclear weapons at any other country but as I feel this war has gone ahead against the beliefs of the UN I wouldn't like to say I would ever be in favour.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    On BBC World right now is an interesting expose of how much of a U-turn the respective administrations are now making in terms of earlier claims as to the ease of this war. Now despite rhetoric meant to allay concerns, the protagonists are finding they desperately need to escalate troop and weaponry numbers.

    This begins to look and seem like the long running excuses used to continually escalate the Vietnam war so long ago. Obviously all the shining claims of popular support and uprising to join our troops didnt materialise and thus this whole thing smells more like conquest with each passing day.

    It would be interesting to see if we dont get our butts handed to us before this whole thing ends. Will that wake up America to how wrong this kind of warmongering is and elicit the kind of contrition we should be showing towards many of our long term friends and allies whom we have grossly insulted by our arrogance and presumption? I truly wonder.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If it was proven that Saddist Hussein had never oppressed his people and that it was all lies.

    If the attack on Halabja was proven to be by someone else.

    You see, I don't support this war because of WMD, I support it because he's a scumbag.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I truly hope that anti-war people dont hope that the US starts losing....Our forces are only going slower than expected because they are trying to minimise civilian casualties..If they start losing a lot of people, remember its less than 50 as of today, its only a matter of time before the gloves come off and civilians become a side issue.

    The best thing to hope for is that the Iraqi army folds asap and both sides incur as few deaths as possible.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    It would be interesting to see if we dont get our butts handed to us before this whole thing ends.

    You know I don't know what worries me more.

    That it could happen.

    Or that people like you would glory in it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I wouldnt glory in it, but nor would I blame Iraq for defending its sovereign territory. The country is far more than one man and many in the country have little reason to see anything but more duplicity in our leaders' renewed claims of magnanimity.

    What scares me is that people like you will glory in successive unsanctioned invasions and aggressive means of conflict resolution until the whole planet is once again engulfed in flames.

    I pray one day you come to comrpehend just how much worse this conflict is going to leave us all in the future.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    What scares me is that people like you will glory in successive unsanctioned invasions and aggressive means of conflict resolution until the whole planet is once again engulfed in flames.

    Still better than just having a talking shop which consistently turns a blind eye to oppression.

    Even worse when many of those who object to conflict do so from the comfort of freedoms they would deny others.

    Of course, I'm sure that we could have talked Saddism out of power. :rolleyes:
    I pray one day you come to comrpehend just how much worse this conflict is going to leave us all in the future.

    And I'm sure you would love that too.

    The "see, I told you so" mentality.

    I'm saddened that it appears that such an outcome would mean more to you that the freedom of an oppressed population.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Perhaps you think World War is preferable to the mechanisms which have kept your own butt snug and safe by and large from bombs falling on London as during the last one, but i suspect youd stand alone, or at least with very few who might otherwise support this one conflict, over that issue.

    You seem to forget that true liberation and democracy has always been achieved, where it has been truly achieved through the actions of its own people for the most part. The UK threw down its own autocrats and the S (albeit with some help) ousted the British themselves. So too can democracy (if it is to be legitimate) only be achieved by those who want it enough for themselves to do it themselves.

    You seem to think that we can impose our view whether it is shared by other cultures and national cultures. That is the mentality of imperialism that drove our forefathers to conquer the heathens so as to enlighten them.

    I begin to see what your thinking truly is MoK and it doesnt flatter you or your intellect one bit.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    find one missile that can travel for 5 or 6 hrs at 500mph and i'll be for the war.
    mok you believe we should spend this generations lives removing every evil ruler and rebuilding their countries in the image of america. it would probably take 100 yrs and most of the wests recources and young peoples lives to do it. yours included.
    a war machine that fights for 50 yrs is going to need an endless supply of flesh and blood. it is impossible and not desirable. some people don;t actualy want democracy. some people think they have but don't. freedom is only relative and comes with responsibilities and "restrictions". the world would be a much better place with diplomacyh and respect for international law and respect for other cultures who don't actualy want to be like us.
    i suppose your one of these people who believe that america would alow "democracy" in iraq. don't make me laugh.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent



    Of course, I'm sure that we could have talked Saddism out of power. :rolleyes:

    Just as China has been "talked" out of Tibet??? :rolleyes: Of course, China came into Tibet by the referendum invitation of the Tibetan people, right?

    "Talk" is the preferred method by the impotent invertibrates who lack the requisites to do anything else...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    You seem to think that we can impose our view whether it is shared by other cultures and national cultures.

    No I don't.

    I think we have a duty to do what we can to help remove dictators from office, by their very nature they are not there through the choice of their peoples and they use their power to oppress them.

    I will always argue that peaceful means are preferable but I will always reserve the right to take the ultimate step - warfare. There comes a point when talking will achieve nothing. In this case neither side was willing to compromise to the extent that the other would need.

    For the US to be satisfied, Saddism would have to have stepped down. He was never going to do that. If I thought that the Iraqis would have been able to do it themselves, then I would have gone down that route, but they aren't as 1991 showed.
    I begin to see what your thinking truly is MoK and it doesnt flatter you or your intellect one bit.

    Better that than appease dictators, Clandestine. You may be comfortable with that position, I never will.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent



    I think we have a duty to do what we can to help remove dictators from office, by their very nature they are not there through the choice of their peoples and they use their power to oppress them.

    hang about ...it's the west, especialy america and the uk who go around the world installing dictators. or have one of us been living on another planet?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Indeed Mok, you trash the Un under the pretext that they ignore oppression yet completely ignore the fact that our own governments with their track records of installing and propagating such regimes and their oppression turn a blind eye until such time as such puppets become uncooperative to our business interests.

    To then justify their warmongering on top of all other complicities might be seen by you and those who share your narrow view as legitimate but you and they fail to comprehend that those who have suffered under our financed oppression know full well that we were behind it all and know that they must suffer again when our bombs start falling.

    I suspect if you were in their shoes youd wouldnt so smugly accept the supposed "right of attack" you currently champion.

    This is not, as some would wish to believe, a "that was then this is now" situation. Geo-political realities cannot be sanitised of the perceptions of those most directly affected by our meddlings in this regard and the track record that we have left offers little substance to the claims that any such peoples would "welcome" us or have any cause to trust us as liberators. The double standards employed by the West are too well known to be compartmentalised and divorced from their fuller historical context by its victims.

    When you comprehend that truth youll be that much closer to appreciating the fact that such pervasive militarism will only create longer term destabilisation and backlash. Then youll realise that your faith in its supposed value of enhancing our security was grossly misplaced.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: What would make you eat your words on the war?
    Originally posted by Aladdin


    I'd eat my words if proof was found that Iraq posed an imminent and clear threat to other nations- for example if plans were discovered about a forthcoming unprovoked attack by Iraq on another country, or if it was proven that Saddam had provided Al Qaeda with WMDs.

    I would eat my words if that happened. Also if in the near futute a system of democracy that worked harmoniously with the culture and population of Iraq is created by the Iraqi people themselves.

    If the Bush/Blair coalition do not seek similar action upon other middle eastern countries.

    If anti-western sentiment in the middle east is reduced.

    If it is the Iraqi people who use their resources to help their economy, not American companies etc.

    If the Bush/Blair administration admit their blatent hypocritical decisions.

    If after this war human rights abuses are examined, investigated and tackled (not by means of attack) the world over by Governments who feel such a need to liberate people.

    If more people realised the worth of every human being is equal.


    I'd love this to happen, however I remain skeptical. (I hope for too much though.)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If in 20 years time Iraq is a successful, egalitarian prosperous nation.

    If the west uses it's power through international institutions to peacefully influence other nations.

    If we never sell another weapon to a nation with a history of human rights abuses or opression of the people.

    If the govt funds huge aid schenmes to cure all curable diseases and educate the population of the world.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And if aliens come back to unravel for us the mysteries of the universe! :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    From MR on another thread. This made sense to me.

    MR
    "i'd have no fly zones to the north and south. i'd have sattelite imaging. i'd have a huge ammount of weapons inspectors, slowly and laboriously working away at their task.
    i would have very few sanctions against a war torn battered and opressed people. very few. i would not dream of denying sick children the painkillers and other medicines they desperately need. i would not prevent antibiotics and disenfectants from reaching hospitals. i would jail (strangeways preferably)any company director who traded in the few engineering/scientific products that i would agree to sanction. we know who these people are from america, britain, france etc. on the whole i would have allowed iraq to trade quite openly with the west. i might even have bombed the place with food and medicine.
    i would have had some very shady characters around baghdad for years if neccessary. you know those arab americans your always going on about, doing their best to undermine saddam. doing their best to recruit people. in the first instance i wouldn't have encouraged him to invade iraq!
    i keep hearing that saddam has had twelve years to comply with our demands. when you push people they dig their heels in. it's always more productive to lead people. WE ...we have had twelve years with our supposedly superior morals, superior education, superior political system to sort the problem out. we were doing quite well and then there was a right wing coup in america and george bush and his masters appeared and wrecked the whole fucking process!"

    I didn't get the last line...but the rest sounded good to me. :cool:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: What would make you eat your words on the war?
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    Blatantly lifted from another place, but it's a good question so I thought I'd post it here.

    What would make you eat your words about the war on Iraq? What event, whether you're pro or against the war, would make you admit you were wrong about your stance in the war?

    I'd eat my words if proof was found that Iraq posed an imminent and clear threat to other nations- for example if plans were discovered about a forthcoming unprovoked attack by Iraq on another country, or if it was proven that Saddam had provided Al Qaeda with WMDs.

    one of those things.

    + the proof that the US tried everything to get a 2nd resolution.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    FOR PNJ...
    0
    we were doing quite well and then there was a right wing coup in america and george bush and his masters appeared and wrecked the whole fucking process!"
    0
    I didn't get the last line...but the rest sounded good to me.

    which part of "wrecked the whole fucking process" did you not understand?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm starting to wonder what side I'm on already. I'm against war in principle, and I'm against this war, because I believe it breaks basic international law, but I'm not sure if the UN shouldn't have made a second resoloution...

    MoK, would be appreciated if you'd stop name calling. It's getting annoying, and it seems to suggest something when the best you can do in an argument is to call names at the other side
    Originally posted by Balddog
    I truly hope that anti-war people dont hope that the US starts losing
    Very few people would do that, I hope. I, and I assume most of the anti-war group, don't want any deaths, be it US or Iraqi. I don't revel in anyone's loss.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Me and> There was no name calling in MR's post preceding your own. What are you referring to?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think Me may be referring to MoK's comments to you on the first page Clan........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ahh sorry, I read it too quickly and once again confused MoK with MR. Its been a bizarre day, apologies.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Globe


    Just as China has been "talked" out of Tibet??? :rolleyes: Of course, China came into Tibet by the referendum invitation of the Tibetan people, right?

    "Talk" is the preferred method by the impotent invertibrates who lack the requisites to do anything else...

    Thats like a three year old preferring to hit the person whos taken its toy rather than ask for it back.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Mr Roll
    hang about ...it's the west, especialy america and the uk who go around the world installing dictators. or have one of us been living on another planet?

    Originally posted by Clandestine
    Indeed Mok, you trash the Un under the pretext that they ignore oppression yet completely ignore the fact that our own governments with their track records of installing and propagating such regimes and their oppression turn a blind eye until such time as such puppets become uncooperative to our business interests.[/b]

    In reply to both of these, can you point out where I have defended my country or the US for supporting dictators?

    If anything, my comments about the UN being unable (or reluctant to act) shows that I believe they should act in these cases too.

    I just won’t let my country’s poor actions to stop me supporting them when I think that they are doing something right.
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    I suspect if you were in their shoes youd wouldnt so smugly accept the supposed "right of attack" you currently champion.[/b]

    Thing is Clandestine that I'm not in their shoes. However much I think I understand how they would feel, I cannot fully comprehend it. And unless you have also been in that position, neither can you.
    Originally posted by Me_and
    MoK, would be appreciated if you'd stop name calling. It's getting annoying, and it seems to suggest something when the best you can do in an argument is to call names at the other side

    Is this about me referring to Saddam as Sadist?

    Isn’t he then?

    Perhaps you would prefer that I referred to him as The Sadist Hussein?
    Originally posted by Simbelyne
    Thats like a three year old preferring to hit the person whos taken its toy rather than ask for it back.

    If the three year old keeps asking and gets no response, he/she will hit the other person.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent
    Is this about me referring to Saddam as Sadist?
    Isn’t he then?
    Perhaps you would prefer that I referred to him as The Sadist Hussein?
    Not just you, there are others as well (I remember seeing him being refered to as 'Soddom Insane' by someone else a while ago. Not sure who...). But yes. Maybe he is a sadist, but as far as I know, that's not his name.
    There are lots of things I could say to or about lots of people, that are true, but it's still not very nice to say it is it?
    I sound like I'm lecturing a five-year-old...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i'm not sure we should worry too much about upsetting Saddam........:confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If Saddam is upset by this forum I really hope he hasn't watched South Park: Bigger, Longer and Uncut
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