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Mayday 2002
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
This years Mayday demonstration in London is going to be massive following the massive success of the anti-capitalist actions in Barcelona. There is also unrest growing in Britain on the industrial front with railworkers and postal workers taking strike action as well as recent strikes by teachers. All this anger by workers will come to a head on Mayday and will see thousands of anti-capitalist protesters and trade unionists marching together.
The assembly point is at Clerkenwell Green, near Farringdon Tube at 12noon. The demonstration will then march to Trafalgar Square from 1pm.
Full details are on the Globalise Resistance website.
The assembly point is at Clerkenwell Green, near Farringdon Tube at 12noon. The demonstration will then march to Trafalgar Square from 1pm.
Full details are on the Globalise Resistance website.
0
Comments
Anything you support, I will boycott on principle.
But some of the things supported at least years protest were anti-racism, third world debt relief, environmental issues.... so why don't you give some real reasons for not supporting such issues?
I dont give a fuck what went on at last years protest. If Steelgate is going, I wont be.
Interesting that you bring up anti-racism..You do know Steelgates views on race dont you?
Bet few of the postal worker, or train driver will be there. In fact I suspect that many will be working, getting their overtime pay like the good little caiptalists that they are.
Of course being a good socialist you won't want anyone working on the MayDay holiday, and so won't be using the Tube, or visiting any shops, restaurants, pubs etc...
That said, I suppose that you could be a hypocrite...
So which is it?
Its like a political party. Whoever you vote for, they are going to have some bad policies, but you still vote for them based on other policies. A lot of the policies campaigned for on MayDay, even if you aren't anti capitalist, are good causes.
And besides, your participation in support of ANYTHING within their agenda gives the mindless steelgates the ammunition to say "LOOK AT ALL THOSE WHO CAME AND DEMONSTRATED IN SUPPORT OF OUR AGENDA!!!"
lmfao!
Political activism is not a new path, and most of us here have been involved to one degree or another, and not being virgins led to the feast any longer, we are aware of the distortions and manipulations that go hand in hand with the little terrorists foising their goods upon the unaware.
Professional Idealism for those too worthless to earn their way in the world, using the prevarication of "redistribution of wealth" to cover their REAL agenda of having their precious little asses supported by the labors of others.
I have SEEN what the communists have to offer - up close and very personal -and it is simply subjugation to another set of self-styled supremist/elitest scum. It has not, and WILL NOT work in a reality based world.
Balddog plays too nice with you.
Me? I have ended the miserable existence of a few of them already... <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
I took an oath to defend my nation against ALL of its enemies, both foreign and domestic. The steelgates are an enemy to my nation, and the way of life I have fought to defend. Mortal enemies. You may coddle and protect them in the UK, but they remain my enemy still...
[ 25-03-2002: Message edited by: Thanatos...AGAIN ]
well in that case they do their causes no favours what-so-ever - because turning up this year will leave you branded a mindless thug, which wouldn't be the case. So why don't the normal folk do themselves a favour and march on another day ?
I agree capitalism is not perfect and in fact the source of many unfairness. But then what is the best alternative? Do you really think destroying all the enterprises and then let a few people distribute the wealth according to what they think is the right way is fair?
Most of the people who march are normal folk, there is usually just a small number who are hell bent on violence. Those people are mindless thugs, and they would turn up to any protest if there was a chnace of violence. Whenever any protest comes along, a huge number of police are sent in, scaremongering tactics are emplyed, and violence becomes inevitable.
Anyone remeber the reports on Genoa? Where plain clothed police officers were sent to start trouble. Or when the 13(ish) british people were grabbed and beaten, and forced to denounce their beliefs. MayDay last year - 6000 police against 3000 protestors. Any protest will be given bad coverage by the media, because the media is politically driven.
May 1st is a traditional day for any kind of anti capitalist protest, I can't remeber why that is. It is because of that that many anti-capitalists march in london. And a lot of other people protesting about other causes join in due to strength in numbers. Also, a lot of the cause can be linked. Political idealogies(sp?) such as anarchism naturally support debt relief for example.
Originally posted by thantos again:
There are various banners ect that show what each group of people is supporting. Indeed, in London last year there were supposed to be dfferent protests supporting different things in different parts of london. But then, of course, everyone just got herded to Oxford Circus by the police.
And, pretty much, everyone there did support the agenda, assuming the agenda was anti-capitalism.
I don't quite see why you think everything anti-capitalist is communism. Most people there were anarchists or socialists. And, in theory, there is nothing wrong with anarchy (although in practice there clearly would be in todays society).
an-ar-chy 1a: absense of government; b: a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absense of goverrmental authority; c: a utopian society made up of individuals who have no government and enjoy complete freedom. 2: absense of order: DISORDER. 3: ANARCHISM
So, without any government, any laws, any order, I would be free to use and abuse your carcass in any manner I chose, before or after your last gasping breath, and there would be no consequence to deter me. <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> I LIKE IT!!! <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
You ain't strong enough to survive, cupcake, especially since you don't believe in weapons and self-defense.
"Anarchists" in this country are more nihlists, bent on the destruction of everything that anyone else owns or possesses. That really endears them to me, don't you know? Millions upon millions of dollars of destruction in the state of Oregon alone.
I am impressed. Come, all you "anarchists", let us open up a "dialogue", up close and personal. Only anarchists in this part of the world are chicken-shit cowards who use the cloak of darkness or the relative safety of a riotous mob to move toward their ends...
May Day celebrations... hmmm... couldn't have anything to do with the Soviet celebrations of the "glorious revolution", now could it? The "triumph" of communism? Naw, that would be too obvious. No better than the wetdream re-creation of the Nazi youth skinheads... Again, I am impressed... but perhaps not in the manner you would wish.
Socialism is a great concept for those lazy assed self-possessed self-styled elitests who believe that by their superior being they are deserving of being supported through life by the labor of the proles. If it isn't given up to you freely, then just STEAL it, with the justification of "re-distribution of wealth" from those who are not lazy little assholes.
Yeah, you start to grasp the concept... "in theory". Unfortunately for you, your "theories" are bullshit, and do not work in the REAL world. Great masturbation material, tho', aren't they?
Those who buy into the communist/socialist/anarchist theories are either cretins with a nefarious agenda, or ignorant lazy louts too stupid to witness the world around them.
Which are you?
[ 26-03-2002: Message edited by: Thanatos...AGAIN ]
I doubt you can claim things wouldn't of turned nastier last year but for heavy handed police tactics, alot of damage was done regardless.
It matters not whether the march was for good or bad causes, the way in which some 'marchers' conduct themselves means the police have to act, it isn't an attack by the authorities on your belief's, its attempts to maintain law and order - the police forces primary objective.
I thought on the day despite months of planning by demonstartors, the police gained the upper hand - The Oxford circus thing was a clever trick, i had to laugh watching on live tv, there they were hell-bent on smashing up London, stuck in a crowd unable to get anywhere <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> Although some peaceful types were also stuck, its the price they paid for associating themselves with what for weeks had been a know attempt at violence.
It would be wonderful to think everybody can do it again this year, there will be nobody intent on violence, the point will be put across and everybody will go home happy, police included, but it won't be like that. If you watch on tele this year you'll see the lengths the police have to go to, to maintain order in the capital, all at tax payers expense <IMG SRC="mad.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
This is the alternative to the present system of capitalism that socialists offer.
Under the present system the bosses and the capitalists use the labour power of thee workers to make their profits. All wealth comes from the labour power of the workers nowhere else. Under the present system 80 per of the worlds wealth is owned by just 5 per cent of the worlds population!
Also there is a mass movement against capitalism now, last July 300,000 anti-capitalst demonstrators took to the streets in Genoa in Italy. Last week in Barcelona 500,000 anti-capitalists took to the streets.
www.marxist.com
I was always taught that if it looks like shit and smells like shit then you can have a fair idea of what it is...
300,000 or 500,000 are complete bullshit figures so don't try to justify yourslef. You wonder why we treat you with contempt and then you use totally unsubstantiated claim to support and unsupportable system...
Look at my earlier comment (which as usual you have ignored because it shows you to be a hypocrite)..
</STRONG>
You use these people to justify your shit and then ignore their plight when it suits. You care about 'the workers' only to use their "plight" to have a go at the establishment. You use these people in a worse way than any capitalist, because a capitalist gives them, something in return, you are just a parasite...
Tell me Steelgate, do you work for a living - or are you living off the state?
Capitalism works. Live with it.
A dictionary answer... it is commonly believe that anarchy is chaos. That is incorrect. Anarchy is the absence of a heirarchy. That does not have to mean disorder. In an IDEAL anarchic society, people would control themselves... that is what true anarchy is, not running around killing everyone. As soon as it dissolved into that, it is not anarchy, because as soon as it dissolves into that, some people have more power.
True anarhcy would be everyone living equally (equality of oppurtunity at least) and peacefully. THAT is what rue anarchy is to me, and that is what I belive can never happen.
Largely due to certain crazy fuckwits who think guns rule the world. <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
[/hippy]
I see what your saying, i agree with alot of the causes been marched for, but unfortunatley a minority are hell bent on violence and i'm sorry but they have to be dealt with <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Communism - Does everyone in the world work to the best of there ability? Those that do why do they do it? Money, if you work harder than anyone else you will live better (generally). So if I'm always going to have a job and be taken care of, why would I want to do anything more than ie, count beans?
If workers are being treated unfairly do they strike against the government? I don't see how that is going to work very well.
Capitalism - Rewards those who work hard and throws away those that don't. This is past on down generations. So Bill Gates' children will be well off, but if the money is wasted, they will eventually be poor. A store clerks children will be hard off, but if they work hard it is possable to pull out. Plus our governments do help those that try and help themselves.
Communism, Anarchy, Socialism, they all can only truely exist in a dream.
Have you looked at the modern father of communism. Read the Communist Manifesto, It will not work according to him, just like everything else it will fall.
Unfortunately, that is impossible.
Proof: There are two cases:
Case (i): Humans are not rational. No sensible decision can be reached by one individual, and so certainly not by a collective. Proposed system fails.
Case (ii): Humans are rational. By Arrow's Possibility Theorem, there is no means of forming a rational social choice from the rational choices of the individuals unless that choice is dictatorial or imposed. Proposed system fails.
quod erat demonstrandum
:: shrugs ::
Time for you to do some more reading down at the library, Stealgate.
(P.S. Still awaiting a reply to my thesis in "War" re: what happens when a group in a competitive world surrenders the will to power.)
[ 27-03-2002: Message edited by: MacKenZie ]
Also for the first few months after the Russian revolution that is exactly how society was run democratically by the workers through workers committees and democracy was established in both the workplace and in the army. The situation though didn't last in Russia mainly because the revolution was isolated in an extremely backward country. Beaurocray soon took over after the death of Lenin with Stalin and his supporters abolishing all democracy in the Soviet Union and leaving only the planned economy.
The Paris commune of 1871 was another example of the working class seizing power. The working people of Paris replaced the capitalist state with their own organs of government and held political power until their downfall in the last week of May. The Parisian workers strove, in extremely difficult circumstances, to put an end to exploitation and oppression, and to reorganise society on an entirely new foundation. The Paris commune was eventualy crushed by the national army of France, but while it lasted it showed that it was possiblefor the workers to run society without bosses.
www.marxist.com
[ 27-03-2002: Message edited by: stealgate ]
You listed all of the people that have had a crap year and have protested.
Originally posted by stealgate:
'There is also unrest growing in Britain on the industrial front with railworkers and postal workers taking strike action as well as recent strikes by teachers.'
But along with all of these people who are unhappy, you have forgotten the Police. True, it's against the law for them to strike, but they were in exactly the same position as all of the above groups.
So where will the Police be on Mayday? looking after all of you lot who decide to act like idiots. I know it's only a minority that cause the violence. But a lot of people that do cause the violence have NO interest in anti-capitalism. All they want is anarchy.
My grasp of politics isn't as good as some of you ot, but if we weren't in a capitalist country, lets say a communist one, you wouldn't have the right to demonstrate. The army would be called in and there would be deaths.
Thats my view anyway.
I did not say that "a system where the workers run the means of production" is impossible: it blatantly is possible. My disproof was of the assertion you made that such a system could operate so that "the wrokers democratically run society in the interests of everyone." I await any counterargument you may have.
You get these ideas from where? How much research on Soviet Russia have you actually done?
Perhaps you will note that Russia's "democratic" period lasted from the February to the October Revolutions. Perhaps you will note that "democracy was established ... in the army" for a short period only, and that the system of command by officers (called "commanders" to disguise the fact) was reinstituted precisely because the Communists' "democratic" forces were getting their asses kicked in the civil war!
As for the "planned economy" you will note that Lenin did try a system known as state capitalism. Furthermore, attempts to operate the land collectively were utter failures leading to nationwide famine.
[ 28-03-2002: Message edited by: MacKenZie ]
Anarchy is anti-capitalist. And anarchy is NOT about violence. I really do hate that mis-conception.
Lets say it was an anarchic society... there would be no army. I think they could exist, but with some major changes to society first.... which may never happen, but which could happen.
Yes capitalism has its problems but it does something socialism/communism never did or would - recognize individuals and pay them for their own hard work.
You are misguided.
and to be honest, i'm not interested in what the socialist workers says, or the communist party manifesto come to that. There is no need for a link to another one of your propoganda site, just answer the questions...
And how likely is that? Commies are lovely to everyone until you dare to question them, then they become Stalin.
Also if you support capitalism then you must be mad as under capitalism 80 per cent of the wealth created is owned by just 5 per cent of the population and there constant wars because of the rivalary capitalism creates between different countries over market, trade routes and access to raw materials! The idiot who wrote this doen't know what communism means! They seem to be reffering to the brutal regimes of eastern Europe which called themselves communist. Those countries were not communist at all. A part from a planned economy they had nothing in common with communism.
Communism means a system whereby the means of production is under the democratic control of the workers and production is done for need not profit!
Read Socialist Worker a paper which tells you the facts.
[ 27-03-2002: Message edited by: stealgate ]