If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Read the community guidelines before posting ✨
Options
Essential support for under 25s
Essential support for under 25s
Take a look around and enjoy reading the discussions. If you'd like to join in, it's really easy to register and then you'll be able to post. If you'd like to learn what this place is all about, head here.
Comments
As I said, learn the true place of your Arab and Muslim heroes: somewhere in an indeterminate middle of a tower of giants, each standing on the shoulders of another.
http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/paper/index.php?article=1071
Funnily enough I was reading the "Muslim News" Friday 20 Dec, a london based newspaper and luckily they have it online too:
The new library of Alexandria
by Philipa Scott
"The Library was not burned by the Arabs, as is usually claimed, but during a series of wars with the Romans after the fall of the Ptolemies and their last queen, Cleopatra, when a series of terrible fires, exacerbated by earthquakes, seriously damaged the city. Many of the scrolls are believed to have been thrown in the sea."
The Maya and Aztecs didn't use Zero and had a better understanding of mathematics and of the universe than we did in the 1940's.
Religion, in any form is the sanctity for the fool. As soon as people cast away organised religion the world will become a better place for it, when we accept that God has got better things to do then check if we're constantly worshipping the wrong prophet in our misguided and human attempts to please him we'll be the better for it.
Jesus was perfect, God is perfect. It is impossible to live up to, or even attempt to come close to perfection whilst we are alive. The best we can do is try and lead good lives, and do our best to make our time on this world good for ourselves and those around us.
Those who attempt to impose their misguided views on others by killing them will be the ones ending up in hell, along with the hypocrites who support them.
Back in the dawn of humanity, we didn't have religions, we led simple lives. We were as we should be, united by our humanity, not divided by our beliefs.
The Maya independently invented the concept of the zero, and also independently developed a unique writing system, making them very rare and notable among civilizations. Zero is an essential part of their numbering system and mathematics that made it superior to say, Roman numerals. The development of the concept of zero is influential in the development of higher mathematics and sciences. The Mayans used a base 20 numbering system. They had symbols for each value 1 to 19, one being one dot, two is two dots, three is three dots, four is four dots, five is a flat bar, six is a flat bar with a dot over it, ten is two flat bars, one on top of the other, etc., up to nineteen which had three bars and four dots. After nineteen, they proceeded to the twenties place, just as we would proceed to the tens place when passing nine. They wrote twenty as a dot in the twenties place followed by a zero in the ones place. The zero looked like an eye. They wrote vertically, so twenty was a dot over an eye. Four hundred was a dot over two eyes. And so on.
We've heard your views of religion enough already. It offers nothing new to the discussion.
I don't know why you decide, however, that it is impossible to achieve a level of perfection in one's life. According to what proof? With a clear set of standards of right and wrong, such as a religion supplies, it is indeed achievable for one wholly dedicated to the effort. Examples would be numerous prophets and saints. Others who claimed such titles did not match up to the standards. You sell humanity short, IMHO, by saying what is and what is not achievable.
Only God is perfect. To attempt to attain perfection on the same level as the creator is futile, to call yourself perfect is blasphemous as only God is perfect.
You can't win with religion, much better to choose to worship a deity in your own way instead of letting other people do it for you. I mean, what's with all this praying 5 times a day nonsense??? You think the almighty would notice if you only chose to mark your respects once a day? I think he'd prefer it if you prayed once, but really meant it.
Nobody said to be perfect like the Creator. There is a difference between human perfection and the perfection of God. A human cannot do more or be more than a human can - i.e. he cannot be Omnipotent, etc. But, he can be perfect in the sense of living a life without sin - there is nothing making that impossible except one's own mind.
You mention God's perfection, then you contradict by trying to say God wouldn't notice one's actions. If God were a human, sure, there might be too much for Him to look at and think about to notice what you do, but that is not the nature of God.
One thing you are right about is that prayer should be sincere or it is of little worth. But a person can pray five times sincerely if he puts his mind to it just as well as one time per day. A benefit of five times per day is that it aids one to remember his purpose in living throughout the day. Each prayer does not take long but can be very useful. If you don't want to pray five times a day, no one is making you. But to ridicule others who chose to do so only degrades yourself in the eyes of others.
Catholic Encyclopedia
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01303a.htm
"This story is now generally discredited, chiefly because it rests only on the authority of Abulpharagius, a writer six centuries later, while earlier writers, especially Eutychius and Elmacin, make no mention of it. Besides, the act is contrary to Mohammedan custom."
Actually, even common sense might tell someone Caliph Umar I could not have been a book-burner given that the ancient knowledge of the Greeks and other cultures actually survived and kindled Europe's Renaissance because it was translated into and preserved in Arabic whereby it was passed back to Europe through the great learning centres, libraries, and universities of Muslim Spain, ruled, incidentally, by the Umayyad dynasty.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml8632.htm
Yes they do fast. It's called LENT. "True Christians" also fast during hard times, as a way of getting extremely close to God and when they are trying to search out His Will. It's like another level of prayer.
When Christians pray, yes sometimes foreheads DO touch the ground. When crying out to God, etc, sometimes even lie on the floor as a way expressing complete humility.
Yes the do. In CofE services, their is the "giving of the peace" section of the service, in fact, most of the western socities use peace quite frequently, we even have a symbol for it. *sticks two fingers up*
Yes, the devout Christians do. and how about BLESS YOU when somebody sneezes. How dare you assume that ALL Christians do, or do nto do certian things. i'm sure there's something in your "Book" about NOT JUDGING.
Indeed, in many films of Jesus, the women do dress JEWISHLY. Does God in no way tell you what you should dress like. Instead He encourages creativity and individuality. However......He does say that we are made in His image. Throughout the Bible, God is refered to as a HE. Men wear trousers, as do A LOT of "Western" women. Therefore useing your argument about how we dress, that would make US closer to God.
There are other points as well. Muslims follow all the Prophets.
The Prophet of Islam has said:
the son of Mary in this world and in the next. The prophets are brothers, sons of one father, their mothers are different, but their religion is one. There have been no prophets between us (Jesus and Muhammad)".
Noone should even compare themselves next to Him. If He is real (I used to be a Christian) NOONE can ever come close to the son of God.
I find your ideas absolutely intruiging as you put so much effort into typing them up but have no way of BACKING THEM UP. You are so blinded by your faith that you fail to see everything else that is going on around you, which in my opinion is the problem with most religions, people so blinded by a faith that they forget how to live. I used to be like you. So blinded by my faith that I didn't care about having friends who didn't belive in God, when really I should have been out there TRYING to be friends with these poeple. You my dear are not making friends here. you ARE NOT going to convert people to your faith by typing reems of Holy Text. You're missing the idea of "You can talk the talk, but can you WALK THE WALK."
i doubt very much that you can do the latter as you've really managed to get my back up.
I know that I am totally off-subject here. Forgive me.
But I just started wondering, about the peace sign, after reading that comment.
When people stick our two fingers to symbolise peace, does it originate from the "Victory-sign", or from the no-nuclear power (or something similar) sign, which the hippies adopted in the 60's. And if it is the no-nuclear, then shouldn't people use three fingers and point down?
Again, sorry to interrupt the discussion, just wondered if anybody knew?
Christians as such don't prostrate the way Muslims do in their prayer. Most of the time you kneel and point your hand upwards with the palms together. Jesus never did that - it's a Church thing.
Lent. But unlike Ramadhan it's more of an optional thing. Jesus fasted (not eating and drinking). Lent for many is more like giving up something. Prince Charles a couple of years ago "fasted" by giving up lunch.
Peace. Muslims greet always with "PBWY" not Hello, or Good Morning or Hi. Christians do not follow this in the same way. I challenge you to produce a Christian who on waking up in the morning says to his family "Peace Be With You" - rather it's "Good Morning". Muslims will say first thing in the morning "Assalamo..."
God made you in his image. Think. An object when placed in front of a mirror produces an image. That image is not the same as the object. The person has independent life and is three dimensional, but the image is wholly dependent on the person and is two dimensional. The image in the mirror does what the person does and not the other way round.
As for Jesus being the son of God it's a figurative expression. Jesus used the son of man alot more and he was never the son of any human i.e. figuratively he used s of m.. He called others son of God in Matt 5:9. He told everyone to call their God "Father", in the Lord's Prayer it starts "Our Father". "Truly this was the Son of God." Matt 27:54 but Luke 23:47 reports the Centurion as saying "righteous man" - so son of God is a pious person. In John 8:41ff he called the Jews' Father the Devil - i.e. they were being bad people not listening to him, again figuratively: he didn't mean their grandmother slept with the Devil! It is Christians under pagan and hellenistic ideas who went and gave innocent Jewish terms literal meanings. Many people were called s of g in the Bible.
#
Saying good morning or "peace be with you" can be argued to be cultural traits and not religious ones.
And giving something up that you think you need is a greater show of willpower and strength than not eating at certain times of the day.
And you've seen Christians pray on a regular basis have you? Catholics are renowned for their kneeling and praying, and I think if you're gonna think you're superior because you pray differently I think you need to get a life.
Kneeling down to pray is characteristic of the Middle East as a whole and not just to Islam, people in the Middle East were kneeling before their masters in a show of respect long before Islam appeared.
In Western society it was normal to bow your head, which is still carried on in prayer.
Like Aladdin said earlier, God has bigger things to worry about than to see if your nose touches the ground or if you say peae be with you every 5 minutes.
Show me a Christian that prays on their knees with thier palms together, because i don't know one, and I know a lot of Christians. You are obviously clutching at straws seeing as you are resorting to stupid answers like that. Why would Christians want to copy the way that Muslims pray seeing as Christians believe that all muslims are going to hell.
Lent is not an optional thing to proper Christians. And I take it that your only view of Christians is of a bunch of people in a fancy church singing hymns, when really that couldn't be further from the truth. In other denominations, such as AoG which I used to attend, fasting was commonplace.
and for your last three points, you quote new testament but again this is what i refered to last night as talking the talk and not walking the walk. congratulations, your're a fountian of scripture, but you miss the basic idea of the whole book. God does not want RELIGION from people, blind actions and ramblings coming from mouths that PROFESS to love Him, but really miss the basics like loving thy neighbour etc. God wants all to love Him, and live as He would, or as he DID through Jesus. But most of accepting Him Him into your life and you have to do the things He asks because you love Him. But you have to do them ALL the time, which includes being like Jesus to those around you, which it seems that you are incapable of doing. You CANNOT and WILLNOT convert people on The Site by typing reems scripture, you have to go out into the world and be like your god to people. Make them wat to be a part of what you are because you make it what it is.
So in an attempt to wrap up this annoying thread I shall give you the answer to your title, "Who really imitates Jesus." its the people who follow this passage.
1Tim 4v12 "do not let anyone look down on you because you are young. Instead SET AN EXAMPLE for the believers, IN SPEECH, IN LIFE, IN LOVE, IN FAITH and IN PURITY."
PBWY is not cultural; ppl in the OT and Jesus taught it and it is throughout the Qur'an and in Prophetic Sayings -it's a religious commandment.
My point I'm trying to make is that Muslims say their religion has been always the same in essence and follow in the footsteps of all the prophets; and things like prayer posture should come as no surprise as being similar as in the Bible. Most of the practises of Christians don't come directly from Jesus, Easter and Christmas definitely don't.
In Lent do Christians fast without food and water?
FFS. YOU ARE MISSING MY POINT. Peace be with you IS OLD TESTMENT. Whats important to Christians is NEW TESTAMENT. For fucks sake. I have answered your question as to who imitates Jesus in my last post. I suggest you read it.
And for the record, you're really being a great example of your faith towards me by telling me to go hibernate. I'm sure that your "god" is really pleased with you now. NOT.
If this is the best that you can come up with then you might as well give up cause your pathetic arguments are really doing my head in.
I know you aren't married to WhoWhere yet hence Miss not Mrs!
But Jesus in the NT told ppl to greet with "PBWY" and used it himself.
http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch5.7.html
Will you please stop clutching at straws and link-whoring.
Try and come up with your own argument instead of posting link after link to stuff that noone cares about.
Try thinking for yourself, there's nothing sadder than seeing someone as young as you so hopelessly brainwashed by religion.
Probably the "few?" Muslims you know are the same ones who blow up places hence your ignorant and biased prejudice on Islam. How would you know they are saying PBWY as they say it in Arabic. Go to the mosque and listen to what people say when the meet each other. Oh, and rent Disney's Aladdin and see what the Genie says at the start "Salaam" - peace.
Tell me Muhammad had a microscope and then I'm prepared to listen to you.
i have to agree with whowhere about it being sad that someone your age should be so brainwashed! the social services should come round and rescue you.
OH MY GOD!!!! Now you have to start using DISNEY cartoons to back up your arguments. I'm sure that Robin Williams does constitue as a muslim.
Please stop this. You ARE NOT going to convert people by coming on here and posting link after boring link. Walk the walk baby.
He may not recognise many of today's so-called Christians but He would certainly not recognise Islam and it's teaching of the hatred of non-Muslims.
The Koran teaches the hatred of Christians and Jews
____________________
"Do not take the Jews and Christians for friends"
(Surah 5:51)
____________________
"fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness"
(Surah 9:123)
____________________
"fight those who do not believe in Allah"
(Surah 9:29)
____________________
"and fight them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"
(Surah 8:39)
____________________
"fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace"
(Surah 9:14)
____________________
"Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them"
(Surah 9:30)
____________________
"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
(Surah 8:12)
Hardly anything to do with the message of love that Jesus taught? Even when He was being put to death, He said ""Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." That is real forgiveness and tolerance. So, no, He would not recognise the actions of Muslims.
Many Christians do fast. But Muslims do it on such a public scale it seems that you are trying to say "Ooh! Look at me! I'm fasting! I'm so holy!". Surely God looks at the heart of the person and not at their superficial actions?
Look at what Jesus said about fasting :-
Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly. Matthew 6:16-18
Once again, Jesus would not recognise Muslims for their exhibitionist ways in fasting.
So what? So do many Buddhists and other Eastern religons. And He never said it HAD to be done that way. Once again, Aisha, you try and deceive people on this board by only quoting HALF-TRUTHS about the Bible.
In the Bible, Jesus prayed in many other postures:-
On his knees: "He (Jesus) withdrew about a stone's throw from them, knelt down and prayed." (Luke 22:41)
... while sitting with children: "Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them." (Matthew 19:13)
...while standing, and looking up: "So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, 'Father, I thank you that you have heard me...'" (John 11:41)
...and looking up while at a meal (presumably sitting or reclining): "After Jesus said this, he looked towards heaven and prayed:" (John 17:1)
So how did Jesus pray? The answer, of course, is that He prayed in many ways. The physical posture is not important.
The manner in which peoples of different faiths greet each other really does not indicate which faith is true or false - it is, at best, a tangential issue. I would rather live in a world where people treated each other with love and in the peace of Jesus rather than simply greeting each other with a superficial wish for "peace".
I have heard many Christians say or write "If God wills". Once again, it really does not indicate which faith is true or false.
There is no indication in the Bible that women wore the "batman" outfits you wear although veils were worn.
But Muhammad got his facts wrong on the history of prophets.
The Qur'an states: Remember Moses said to his people: "O my people! Call in remembrance the favour of Allah unto you, when He produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave you what He had not given to any other among the peoples." [Sura 5:20]
Moses was the first prophet from among Israel; and Israel's first king, Saul, would begin his reign about 400 years after Moses. Therefore, at the time Moses was standing before the people of Israel there had not yet been any prophets or kings from among them that he could call their remembrance to.
This is, therefore, a historical compression in the Qur'an and a clear contradiction to history as documented in the Bible.
Muhammad had HEARD of many kings and prophets in Israel, but was not clear about their historical succession, so that his ignorance lead to this historical error in the Qur'an.
Why then should we believe the rest of what he has to say or to take heed of it? Islam is fundamentally flawed in so many ways.
Aisha, don't come back to me and say that I have taken things out of context or whatever because that is what you CONSISTENTLY do to the Bible.
I'm not here to defend Chrsitianity as a Christian - it's just that I am so sick and tired of your incessant blathering on about your religon as though the contents of your book are factual and accurate. It does, in fact, contain glaring scientific and historical errors as well as contain numerous contradictions - to many for me to bother posting on here (unless you really want me to but I'm sure noone else on this board has the faintest interest in your guffle either.
None of it ever happened, the bible was merely a collection of stories written my ancient monks to teach lessons about life.
The world wasn't created overnight, adam and eve weren't suddenly put on earth, Jesus didnt do a huge magic trick with bread and water...
Ok, the bible is good as a guide about what's wrong and right but personally, I think that praying to a 'higher being' is wrong, because there quite simply isn't one.
It's the 21st Century, get with it.
Erm ... no, it wasn't written by monks but I understand where you're coming from. I'm an agnostic because I'm not wise or clever enough to know for sure ... but generally, I would agree with you.
Perhaps he would recognise the people who are still stoning women for adultery, although he had some things to say about that in his time? That's not meant as sarcasm (well, not entirely), I'm just really interested in where the whole death sentence thing came from, when Mohammed came on the scene well after Jesus. Killing apostates is also something that doesn't gyre with Christ's teachings. Is this stuff from the Koran, or out of those hadiths I keep hearing about?
What is the point in trying to prove a superior religion?
The way I understand it, Islam, Christianity and Judaism share the view of a single God and thus share something of a common respect to each other. Certainly not trying to out- do each other with childish claims of "mine is better than yours".
And Easter not coming from Jesus???? Hello- Good Friday and Easter Sunday are the most important days in the Christian year and the basis of the whole religion!!