If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Read the community guidelines before posting ✨
Options
Gibraltar
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
So a 90% turn out and a 99% "No to joined sovereignty" result.
Pretty emphatic, huh?
So, does this put the kybosh on the Spanish position or will they (and the UK Govt) ignore it as they have suggested?
Pretty emphatic, huh?
So, does this put the kybosh on the Spanish position or will they (and the UK Govt) ignore it as they have suggested?
0
Comments
It's a pity, that in a world of diplomacy, the foreign secretatary can't be blunt and tell the spaniards to fuck off, and if they want Gibraltar that badly they can try and take it.
Thanks
Currently the population are "British" and, as this referendum suggests, wish to remain so. Gib is also an important UK Forces base.
The Spanish have a long standing claim on the "Rock" and until recently had similar border control that exist between Turkey a Greece. I'm sure Aladdin could give you more information on this.
Recently, as part of an EU drive, the two countries have been discussing the issue and a few months ago our Foreign Secretary briefed Parliament on the issue, saying that both nations had agreed that sovereignty should be shared. Unfortunately neither country thought to ask Gib what they thought :eek:
What this referendum shows is that Gib resident will not accept this even being discussed, because for them it is a non-starter. Whilst they are happy for other issues to be on the table, they will not accept this.
Personally, I think we have a duty to support them, just as we did the Falklands (although I doubt things will go so far
If anything, I don't truly understand their claim to it. So they lost it in a war; big deal. Germany lost (what is now) Kalinigrad in a war. Should they have that back?
Imagine that in the middle of your country (or on one of the coasts) there was a territory, taken by force in a past war, that is and remains a foreign land. With border controls, a foreign flag flying, different administration... in short a completely unnatural, artificial foreign state planted in the middle of a sovereign nation. How would people feel if they're travelling through the Sussex coast when suddenly they arrive at, say, Brighton, and see that the whole area is fenced up, with border controls and a foreign flag flying in the middle of mainland Britain?
This is in essence what Gibraltar is. A geographical and political abomination. And that's why the Spanish want to regain sovereignty of the area.
Now to the issue of the Gibraltarians. There has been lots of animosity between the two communities for the last three hundred years, to say the least. It is true that the Spanish usually make things difficult for them out of spite, and I cannot blame the Gibraltarians for not wanting to become Spanish.
The thing is, a solution could be so easy. No one is trying to kick out the locals from Gibraltar. If they so want to remain British, then all the British government needs to do is exchange their Gibraltarian passports for British ones. The Rock acquires double sovereignty status, becoming eventually Spanish, the locals remain British, stay living where they are, keep their tacky fish and chip shops and souvenir stores, and in exchange the Spanish see the borders within their own land removed, the foreign flag flying over Spain taken down, and the country become whole again.
I don't know what the Spanish government is suggesting at present with regard to nationality. Asking the Gibraltarians to become Spanish is out of order and will not work. But as long they remain British a compromise can be reached. At the end of the day there are 500,000 Britons living permanently in Spain, and that doesn't make them feel any less British or challenge their allegiance to the Crown.
For the record, the Spanish government is being hypocritical by trying to get Gibraltar back whilst keeping the outposts of Ceuta and Melilla in Moroccan land. These posts should be handed back to Morocco.
Hehe, I wasn't going to mention that!
It's all well and good suggesting handing it back anyway, despite what the locals want. But you've seen what's been happening in Northern Spain and the Basque seperatists.
These people are British, they won't admit defeat easily and if they wake up to find a Spanish flag flying on the capital building, and Police in green uniforms it is very likely that they will go on a rampage of destruction around Spain.
The Spanish tried to take Gibraltar back by force, and failed. Now they're trying with diplomacy, and they failed again. They should just forget about it and move on, because as long as the locals want to stay British they won't accept joint or Spanish rule.
Part of the problem Whowhere is what nationality these people would be should ownership be shared. I don't know what the Spanish government position is as present, but as I said earlier Gibraltarians should not forced to become Spanish nationals. If Gibraltar was shared by both nations, or even given to Spain altogether and Gibraltarians were given full British passports and allowed to carry on as normal, it is not such a hard thing to ask. Everybody would benefit from a unified land. No border controls, no delays, improved services, and most important of all a normalisation of relations amongst the two communities.
Remember that there are dozens of British communities across Spain and many holiday resorts and apartment complexes with pretty much 100% British occupancy, British pubs, food stores and restaurants, and all the rest. They still manage to live happily under Spanish rule and have good relation with their neighbours. I can't see why this can't be achieved in Gibraltar.
As for Gibraltarians going on a rampage of destruction in Spain, don't you worry. I'm pretty certain the police would handle any disturbances pretty efficiently.
The important difference being that these people have chosen to live on the Spanish mainland and under Spanish rule, rather than having Spanish sovereignty forced upon them.
The Gibratarians haven't and, with this vote, have made it pretty clear that this isn't even an option in their eyes. Surely they have the right to determine under which flag and laws they live regardless of what the Spanish Govt (and the EU) think...or isn't democracy allowed?
What you missed from your similie is that if the people of Brighton chose to live as a separate state then why should we complain?
Basque separatists?
These people were also allowed and welcome to live permanently in Spain under EU laws. Gibraltar however was taken by force, transformed into a foreign territory within Spanish land and populated by foreigners.
A bit of a compromise would be nice. If staying where they are and remaining British citizens is not good enough for them, if it is so important that they live under British rule and flag, then perhaps they should move to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, some 1,500 miles to the North. Which is where Britain is.
As native British citizens exercising their right to self-determination, you probably would have no right to complain. You would rightly complain, however, if Brighton was taken by force by the French, fenced up, populated by French nationals, declared a foreign land and had the settlers and the French government rising up two fingers to your face for 300 years.
all borders are artificial - you forget that VITAL fact. they have the right of self determination as the rock of gibralter was ceded IN PERPETUITY to the UK....good old treaty there.
if any such tactics are used, they declare UDI and ally themselves as a colony of the UK. result: spanish are fucked
the spanish have no claim to gibralter, as it all happened too long ago - there has to be a point at which you draw the line, and i would have said this was it.
Some 300 years ago...so let's be honest, it hardly affects many of the spanish citizens now, does it?
So how far back can we take these claims, afterall most of the world once belonged to the UK. Can we have it all back please, regardless of what the respective populations think?
Why should they compromise?
That really is a lame argument Aladdin. They are currently on British territory and under British rule, so would would they want to leave that, just because Spain doesn't like it?
Failure to secure a military victory 300 years ago is no basis for negotiation now.
BTW There is a small part of Folkestone which is considered French territory...
There was one island, where a community lived, still in the 1900s, and scotland demanded they be united. When this happened, the community was abandoned (what is the point of getting your own food when you can move to the big city with cheap food for less work) and has since just become one of those other islands around scotland for rich millionaires or channel 4 shows to buy.
Unity is the ultimate goal of mankind, as you can see how through history man/womankind (hehe) has slowly grouped together. But, in an age like today, why does spain care so much? Its part of britain now, s they just have to live with it. You will see this sort of thing all over the world, when ex wars have resulted in disputes over land, sometimes even resulting in new wars. The russian empire was largely based on this, they lost land, took it back, lost land, took it back. in the 1960s (i think) they spent so many resources trying to claim afghanistan under russian sovreignty it was unbelievable. If I could, i would wave a magic wand and all land disputes would end. We could say, that the USA belongs to the united kingdom, and demand them for the return of it. Throughout history conflict has caused the change of boundaries. People just live with it. Nowadays things are like they are. for stability i think they should stay like they are (apart from terrorists).
Spain (the government) will not respect the democratic vote of Gibraltar, the same as it will not even let the Basque Country take a referendum on their, er... I don't know how you say it in English... autodetermination (?). They are scared they will want to be separate. And that would be impossible! Franco left it clear: One, great and free! :rolleyes:
I see no reason for giving it back (the frontier someone said, Franco put it there), but on the other hand the reasons for not giving it back are dubious. A woman said on telly, with her funny Spanish (a mixture of the Cádiz accent (that makes me laugh by itself) and an English one. Once I was there, in a cab, and the driver was telling me something that happened to him and he said: "Entonce (no "s") me fui a un fichanchí". That was a new word for me. what he said was: "Then I went to a fish and chips"))...
I was saying...
A woman said on Telecinco's news that she prefered to be dead than Spanish... Someone else told me that the Gibralterian (?) media never stopped bashing Spain and the spaniards... Why do they do this? Why would the bosses of gibraltar not want to belong to Spain? Why doesn't Britain just give it back totally?
For the same reason Britain (the bosses: you know... bank owners, big enterprise owners, Dom... all the rich ones) doesn't accept the Euro: We, the Euro countries, can not have fiscal paradises... If gibraltar belonged to Spain, they'd pay tax like anyone else... If Britain had Euros, bah bye Jersey, bah bye Guernsey... "Where do we hide are money now?" :nervous:
Now. Ceuta and Melilla (and Chafarinas, Alhucemas, Peñón de Vélez de la Gomera and of course the now famous Perejil)... I've heard they should be given back to Morroco... The situation is totaly different. In Spain there is a shitty democracy, but it is undoubtedly better than the "one" Morroco has.
Firstly, if the Spanish government doesn't respect the results of a democratic referendum it is left with 2 choices.
It can either drop the whole thing, or do what Argentina did and try and take Gibraltar (like the Falklands) by force.
it would start a war it could never hope to win for the sake of a small outcrop of land.
Secondly, Gibraltar is different to Guernsey and Jersey.
Gibraltar, is a constituent part of the UK. The laws are the same, the banknotes are the same, they pay income tax and VAT to the British government.
Gibraltar is in effect like the East or West Midlands. It functions in exactly the same way. The people act and live as if they would in the UK, so I've been led to believe.
There is an active military base which is a vital strategic NATO base for attacks on the Middle East, as is Diego Garcia in the Indian ocean.
Jersey and Guernsey are different. They are like small colonies in the channel. They don't pay tax at the same level, they don't have the same police, or the same banknotes and they have different laws. They are self contained countries, that choose to live with the British flag, but in truth could survive without the UK if they wanted to.
That is the subtle difference, and the truth is Gibraltar isn't a tax-haven.
It is a fundamentally bad idea to set up illegal buisnesses near to one of most strategic military bases and with taxes at the same level as the UK mainland it is utterly pointless.
I'll give you another example of what Jersey and Guernsey are like.
There is a small country off the coast of the UK. It is called Seahaven. It is in fact an oil rig that was purchased about 10 years ago by a few friends.
They went to live there and decided to declare independance from Britain. The government went mad, because Seahaven's primary purpose was and still is a location for buisnesses that can escape the taxes, and also a location of a great many internet servers where people can rest assured that they can store files securely and be sure that their messages and information isn't checked.
Seahaven has a population of about 12, and although the people are English, they aren't part of England. They have their own laws, their own flag, they answer to noone.
That is what Jersey and Guernsey are.
As for the Spanish respecting the 'democratic' wishes of the locals, I believe the Israelis are eager to use a similar tactic in the West Bank and Gaza with their ever-growing illegal settlements. Take some land by force, populate it with your own, and once you have enough of your people there you issue a referendum and, bingo! The majority of the 'residents' want to remain Israelis/British. Some democracy.
It is a major supply base and a home to stealth bombers, AWACS and other large support aircraft/ships and armoured units.
No idea what comes out of the Gibraltan one, and I just realised, they aren't NATO bases, just British ones.
Despite its logistical position the base is of limited importance. The runway is rather short, and large military aircraft would struggle to use it (they always say if a Concorde had to do an emergency landing at Gibraltar, it would never take off again due to the runway length).
Complete command of the entry into the Med is of significant strategic importance....and I would guess that there are very few military aircraft (the B52 and B2 are the only ones that come to mind) that couldn't use Gibraltar's airfield with the addition of JATO or RATO units. The Concorde isn't comparable to military aircraft.
They wouldn't stand a chance. Unless they invade at siesta time
About 1/3 of Spain's army is made up of conscripts, who often don't appreciate being made to join the army. Conscripts often perform more poorly than volunteers, and in many countries recieve the worst training and equipment
Plus, Spain uses old American castoffs.
Most of them if not all are volunteers now. And they have better rifles than the British. So no contest I'm afraid.