Patrotism

Former Member

How would you define it?

And what is your personal opinion about it?

Former Member

Love for ones country. Wanting to do things for the benefit of your country and her people. Acting in the best interests of ones country.

Former Member

I can't remember where I read this, might have been a Bad Religion interview, but someone said they were 'patriotic but not a nationalist' and that is how I feel.

I love my country but I don't think we should be isolated and I am not naive enough to think it is the best place on Earth.

Some people take patriotism too far though.

I don't think there is anything wrong with it, it is healthy as long as people don't try and take it to racial extremes (Like the BNP and National Front who have invaded our pretty little village with awful racist posters, grrr. :mad: )

Former Member

A definition?

"Patriotism is the belief that your country is better than everyone elses by virtue of the fact that you were born there." If anyone knows who originally said this, please say, because I don't.

Personally I agree with Bumble's "patriotic but not nationalist". I love my country, but I recognise that on many objective levels other countries are better. However, England is the best country on Earth.

Former Member

That would be my definition of nationalism Vox

Some patriotism quotes I quite liked

Forgive him, for he believes that the customs of his tribe are the laws of nature.
George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)

'My country right or wrong' is like saying 'My mother drunk or sober'.
G.K. Chesterton (1874-1936)

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

Patriotism is the veneration of real estate above principles.
George Jean Nathan (1882-1958)


Dont agree with them of course

Former Member

Originally posted by Vox populi, vox Dei
However, England is the best country on Earth.

This just got me thinking, when is a country "best"? What makes it "best"?

Hope that I am not mixing too many subjects together. But I am interested in peoples views.

Former Member

I think Balddog's definition is clsoer than Vox's, becuase Vox's sounds more like nationalism than patriotism...

For me patriotists put their country's interests in front of others, not because it is the best, but because it is theirs.

As for what makes a country 'best', that's a tough one and I don't think that any country can really claim that, honestly. We all have things which we dislike about our country and things which we love. There are elements of other cultures which I would like to see here and I'm sure that others would like a bit of British-ness in theirs...

Former Member

I think that Vox's definition, while glib, is pretty close to the truth. I see patriotism as just a larger-scale version of familial or tribal loyalty, and hence largely an accident of birth and quite blind and subjective.

I do have a special place in my heart for the green and pleasant land, but I know that it is an accident of birth, that I would likely feel the same way about my homeland regardless of what country it actually was. My particular petriotism is best summed up by a quote from Thomas Paine's The Rights of Man:

"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good."

Former Member

I agree with most of the statements above. It is good to difference between patriotism and nationalism. I’ve never understood those who claim to be ‘proud’ to be English, or Spanish or whatever. I am not more 'proud' of my nationality than of being left handed.

Whereas I am happy to celebrate the cultural and social achievements of my country, I am also prepared to criticise it when wrong has been done. I appreciate and enjoy what good my country of birth (or of residence) has to offer, but I will be prepared to raise my opposition to anything that my country advocates if I consider it wrong.

That IMHO is the main difference between patriotism and nationalism.

Former Member

frankly the only thing that ever gets me feeling patriotic is football; which I think is true for most people nowadays. The world has shrunk so much and we live in so much more of a global community that being very patriotic is like being proud of gonig to sainsbury's rather than m+s - there's really very little difference. In the developed world, at least.
On the other hand, I'm proud of things like the liberties we have here which are rarer abroad, like no ID and so on. I think British people are all right, generally, and when I'm abroad i get unreasonably defensive if people start slagging them off. So I guess instinctively I'm a bit patriotic.

Former Member

Patriotism is stupid as the workers of the world have no country! All countries are creations of the ruling class and were set up by rival factions of the international ruling class centuries ago. The workers of each country have far more in common with each other than their own ruling class. The picture below sums up the idiocy of patriotism quite well.


http://www.socialistparty.org.uk

Former Member

Of course, that would apply if you saw you country as a prison. Something a patriot is unlikely to do :rolleyes:

Besides, it is the difference between the countries and their people which makes the world an 'interesting' place. It's worth noting that most of us here have little in common with you Steelgate, and you are 'British' FFS.

Former Member

Originally posted by Man Of Kent
It's worth noting that most of us here have little in common with you Steelgate, and you are 'British' FFS.

I am not British, there is no such thing as a British person, a French person or an American we are all human beings! Nationalities are false labels put on us by our rulers! The workers of the world have no country! Countries are used to keep the workers of the world divided! That is why we socialists have opposed every war as wars are only to protect the interests different sections of the international ruling class!

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk

Former Member

Originally posted by stee1gate
I am not British, there is no such thing as a British person, a French person or an American we are all human beings!

Apologies, you are right, you are indeed a nobody.

Nationalities are false labels put on us by our rulers!

Unlike you I don't need someone else to do my thinking for me. I choose to label myself, its not something I have ever been told to do.

Actually it doesn't surprise me that the denial of "nation" is something socialists support. Machiavelli once wrote that inorder to subjugate you first need to remove all sense of identity.

Former Member

No, Steel is right. He isn't British. If he ever decides to disgrace this country by announcing he is British I'll be organising a bus to London to arrange a swift kick up the ass and deportation to Iraq. let's see what Saddam makes of him.

I am a patriot, I love my country, and i will defend it to the death. I accept that other countries may do some things better, but at the end of the day my loyalties will lie with England and the UK. It sickens me to know that there are "citizens" within this country who will dance a merry jig when the nuclear bombs are falling on London, and I hope that they meet a painful end.

Former Member

Originally posted by stee1gate
there is no such thing as a British person, a French person or an American we are all human beings! Nationalities are false labels put on us by our rulers!

Some more labels for you to look up...

Afro-Asiatic
Niger-Congo
Nilo-Saharan
Khoisan
Austronesian
Pygmies
Indo-European
Elamo-Dravidian
Sino-Tibetan
Austroasiatic
Tai-Kadai
Miao-Yai
Hungarian
Altaic
Russian

Understand the differences that they illustrate?

Former Member

Is Steelgate an anarchist?

Former Member

It kinda seems so. In fairness, I think Steelgate is attempting to refer to nationalistic labels as being inferior to our common humanity.

Where he goes wrong is highlited in the point made by Greenhat (ooh I actually agreed with you there GH, take note), that there are ethno-linguistic and cultural divides that are endemic to each and every one of us.

Kenichi Omae illustrated it best in his book, The Borderless World, when he took to task the obsolete notion of the nation state and its bureaucratic shortsightedness by outlining the modern movement of capital and industry without respect to borders.

I agree that the world will be better off when the nation state is dead and buried as a concept of division, but doubt ill see any such shift in my lifetime.

Former Member

Originally posted by Whowhere
I am a patriot, I love my country, and i will defend it to the death. I accept that other countries may do some things better, but at the end of the day my loyalties will lie with England and the UK. It sickens me to know that there are "citizens" within this country who will dance a merry jig when the nuclear bombs are falling on London, and I hope that they meet a painful end.

You are a class traitor! You should understand that all the workers of the world have far more in common with each other than with their rulers! The interests of the international working class are not the same as the interests of the international ruling class who exploit the workers of the world for their own interests and use then to fight their wars.

I would suggest that all the patriots join the British National Party or Combat 18 where they belong.

Former Member

Originally posted by stee1gate


I would suggest that all the patriots join the British National Party or Combat 18 where they belong.

And I would suggest that you get a clue!

Geez, you're more than double as old as I, and even though they say that age is nothing but a number, I would have thought that by now you would have gotten a little teeny tiny share of life experience. But obviously you havn't been blessed/cursed with that.
Can't decide whether, you living in your isolated bubble of cut and pastes is a good thing, or if I should feel extremely sorry for you.
[/finished (for now)]

Former Member

I must admit, whilst he has said a few significant things in the past I am starting to become inclined to believe that these were purely by accident.

Steelgate, the rhetoric is getting a bit thick to be acceptable to any thinking person, sorry to say.

However well meaning you might be this kind of Marxist crap ignores the fact that most of these "workers" will also undoubtedly see themselves as German, French, Italian, Indian, Chinese, or what have you, far more than as a "worker". People do not normally associate their cultural identity with their professional identity.

Former Member

Originally posted by Clandestine
However well meaning you might be this kind of Marxist crap ignores the fact that most of these "workers" will also undoubtedly see themselves as German, French, Italian, Indian, Chinese, or what have you, far more than as a "worker". People do not normally associate their cultural identity with their professional identity.

Cultural identity is still false and a barrier to international working class solidarity. Cultural identity can be dangerous too as it is all too easy for nationalist bigots to whip up sectarian hatred such as in Nothern Ireland and Yugoslavia. In Northern Ireland the cultural differences between people were tiny yet were used to drive a wedge between Protestant and Catholic workers.

Nationalism benefits no one but the ruling class who use it to keep the workers divided! That is why all socialists should fight against it!

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk

Former Member

You can fight against it all you want, I only informing you that it would be an exercise doomed to failure since most average workers couldnt give a toss about politics as the electorate returns in most elections proves.

Former Member

Originally posted by Clandestine
You can fight against it all you want, I only informing you that it would be an exercise doomed to failure since most average workers couldnt give a toss about politics as the electorate returns in most elections proves.

I think you are wrong there! People don't support the mainstream parties much because the mainsream parties are all the same and do little or nothing to solve the problems ordinary people face!

The very fact that 400,000 people marched through London yesterday about rural issues shows that most people do care about politics! As will a similar number who will march through London this Saturday against the coming war with Iraq!

Before you say that 400,000 people is a tiny minority. Most people don't have the time or abilitly to attend demonstrations due to things like the distance they live from London where most demos take place or work commitments but they still care about things!

http://www.stopwar.org.uk

Former Member

True many may care but many more just care about their own immediate circumstances. You are unlikely to see any great support overall for a Marxist revolution im afraid.

Former Member

Originally posted by stee1gate
Cultural identity is still false and a barrier to international working class solidarity. Cultural identity can be dangerous too as it is all too easy for nationalist bigots to whip up sectarian hatred such as in Nothern Ireland and Yugoslavia. In Northern Ireland the cultural differences between people were tiny yet were used to drive a wedge between Protestant and Catholic workers.

Nationalism benefits no one but the ruling class who use it to keep the workers divided! That is why all socialists should fight against it!

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk

Oh for gods sake steelgate, get a life:rolleyes:

Im Welsh! Does that mean Im oppressed by the rulers of my coutry? newp becuase we dont have rulers.

Cultural identity? WE have a strong one.To be brough up in wales IS different to being brought up and educated in England. Does that make me more controlled by a ruling Party? Newp.
It means I have an appreciation of the welsh language and culture and the good things that make us different.

Im Welsh first, British second.Im proud of my country's history.

I wouldnt ever (unlike Vox) claim that my country is the best, greatest, etc
Your love of your country should be a personal thing.It is not for us to hold our country up as an example of greatness over another state.

It may be the best place for yourself but that doesnt mean that it is any better than any other country that someone choses to make their home or is born into.

Former Member

Originally posted by Clandestine
True many may care but many more just care about their own immediate circumstances. You are unlikely to see any great support overall for a Marxist revolution im afraid.

If everyone understood what Marxist politics was really about then the majority of the population would strongly support it! That fact that the majority of people don't have a clear understanding of Marxism is partly due to the socialist parties themselves who hide behind front organisations like the Anti-Nazi League which is a front for the SWP and put out tons of literature condemning fascism without putting out literature promoting Marxism!

Revolutions are also made by dedicated minorities as well. That has been true of every revolution in history from the Bolshivik revolution of 1917 to the Sandanista revolution in Nicaragua in 1979 which overthrew the Samoza dictatorship. That is one thing that the anarchists forget, they seem to think that revolution will be brought about without leaders and by the masses themselves.

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk

Former Member

Originally posted by stee1gate
If everyone understood what Marxist politics was really about then the majority of the population would strongly support it! That fact that the majority of people don't have a clear understanding of Marxism is partly due to the socialist parties themselves who hide behind front organisations like the Anti-Nazi League which is a front for the SWP and put out tons of literature condemning fascism without putting out literature promoting Marxism!

Revolutions are also made by dedicated minorities as well. That has been true of every revolution in history from the Bolshivik revolution of 1917 to the Sandanista revolution in Nicaragua in 1979 which overthrew the Samoza dictatorship. That is one thing that the anarchists forget, they seem to think that revolution will be brought about without leaders and by the masses themselves.

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk

Uhm..if you actually understood how Marxism really worked you wouldn't be so in love with Marxism. As for the rest of the crap, you've never seen any of those "revolutions", have you?

Former Member

Could, would, should. It's all IF's and frankly the reality of the world is that people want, for whatever reason you choose to believe, people want.

Marxism fails and has failed consistently to become a political reality since it ignores human nature in all its selfish depravity. Any revolution will inevitably give rise to the weak "followers" and strong "leaders", who will (and have throughout the history of attempted Marxist revolutions) assume control only to maintain that power base over the rest of society.

Sorry Steelgate, as much as I agree with your anti-war comments, this one is a proven flop.

*just go shopping and buy yourself something nice and knock off this doomed pursuit*

Former Member

William Shakespeare
This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,--
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.

Former Member

Are you trying to set up a new record of number of different avatars displayed in a week MoK?