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Sorry if I'm saying the wrong things or offending you, but I think you're really missing my point. I looking at it objectively in a simple comparison between dying, or not dying. And I would rather not die. I don't think that's a particularly controversial view point, and I'm not belittling what rape victims go through.
Essentially my point is that after a rape you still have the capacity to feel - obviously bad things though.
Having had the experiences you've had you're obviously coming at this from a more personal point of view, which is understandable, and I don't know you're situation at all. But in general, rape victims can and do recover somewhat, and live out full and - sometimes - happy lives. I'd rather have the chance of that happening than not.
Am I being completely off the wall here in thinking murder is worse than rape? Anyone agree with me at all (doesn't look like it, obviously!)
If you had been bum raped by another guy, and you still said rape was preferable to death then fine. However you haven't, and you haven't been murdered either.
Until you've been violated in such a profound and personal way it is impossible to make a proper comment. That is why I have remained out of the latter part of this topic.
you've got your point across better in that last post, and i can kinda see it clearer now...and i am coming at it from a pretty personal angle but then i shouldnt let that influence my judegment, i guess, im sorry, but we're gonna have to agree to disagree, seeing as we've managed to go totally off topic and slightly to hijack the thread. whoopsies.
Yes, after a rape you know that you are a victim. After a murder, quite plainly, you wouldn't.
No because we are looking at it from two differing perspectives.
From a victim's point of view, rape means that you become a victim every day for the rest of your life. Fomr that person, there could be no worse crime. Added to that is the mpact on the victims family.
With murder, only the family suffer after the event. THe vcitim obviously doesn't.
Hoever, when you look at this from scoirty's perspective, murder is worse. The taking a human life being the ultimate taboo.
Without getting into a bizarre conversation covering othe lives and continued existance, it could be argued that being dead would not necessarily be an advantage over being alive and having been raped.
I don't agree with this. As a rape victim you do have the capacity to be able to think around the event and continue with your life. You do not wake up every day having been raped again that day. You wake up and you were raped whenever you were raped. It is then up to you to deal with it. Now each person has differing ability to do this, and of course it is going to depend on the exact circumstances and things like wether the person that did it was caught or known to the victim, but there is a definite possibility of being able to lead a normal life for the rest of your years. If you were murdered there would definitely not be this possibility.
There's a parallel here, although a somewhat tenuous one, to being bullied at school. Some people will never get over the fact that they were bullied at school and it will continue to hinder them for the rest of their lives, other folk will come to terms with it and move on. The bullying happened, it's down to the individual how much of an affect it will have when they are 30, 40 or 50.
I disagree with this. I believe that being dead is quite a severe amount of suffering. You certainly can't do anything about it.
But then noone would be able to comment, ever, as noone has experienced murder.
And to be honest, that's a quite ridiculous viewpoint you've got there. As we're speaking hypothetically about what is considered worse, it is (as far as I'm concerned) an intellectual debate rather than an emotional one. Which is exactly how it must be, or was, when deciding the law on these sort of issues.
I was trying to avoid the afterlife too. It would just get a little too surreal then...
Are you sure? What about nightmares, for a start? What about reliving the event, sometimes daily? What about facing your attacker in court?
For a murder victim everything ends at the moment the crime is committed.
Can you explain how a dead person is suffering?
Without being sentient how do they know pain/feeling etc?
Fair enough.
Anyway, I hope you can continue with your life with some degree of happiness, at any rate. I wasn't trying to belittle or offend anyone, so if that's the case, apologies.
That's a pretty facetious point to make. In many people's eyes, being killed is pretty much the ultimate piece of suffering. There's no coming back from that, is there? The victim has suffered the ultimate loss, in losing their life. It's a pretty strange argument to say murder vitims don't suffer because they're dead - not one I really follow to be honest.
Anyway, enough from me now, it's obvious what my point of view is, so there's no need for me to go on about it. Sorry!
Quite.
This is all in the mind of the individual victim. Yes, I agree that some victims may never be able to come to terms with the event. However for the rest there is the fair chance that they will be able to and they can return to a normal life.
This compares with the murder victim having zero chance of being able to come to terms with his or her murder and return to a normal life.
Suffering is perhaps not the right word, but it does seem to me that the murder victim that was due to have life expectancy D now has D - however many years the murderer took off him. That doesn't seem quite fair to me, being as time is priceless.
Sorry but that is the entire point.
Rape isn't just a physical act, it is a mental one too.
Life "expectancy" is a misnomer really, isn't it? It doesn't reflect reality at all, people die earlier, others die later. I could go into issues of fate here, but won't because we would be hitting that surreal thing again.
Of course, what you have just argued is that it is okay to murder a 72-y-o man, and a 76-y-o woman, because they have reached their life expectancy
Sorry, what I am trying to get across is the issue of sentience, the ability to feel suffering.
Which is why I tried to highlight the difference between a victim's POV and society's...
MoK, I've read your stance on Rape being worse than murder. So would you say that the man that lost both legs while trying to escape from the World Trade Centre had a worse crime committed against him than his colleague who burnt, bled and fell to his death from the 50th floor? After all, the man with no legs now has to live with what happened to him emotionally and physically, and suffer for years to come, while his colleague has no more suffering.
Slightly
Basically yes. But it isn't quite that simple. His colleague suffers no more...
Look I know that it is hard to comprehend, but I think I have been clear. A dead person feels no pain, has no feelings. From their perspective there is nothing.
A survivor has many emotions, ranging from living with their own injuries to the "why me?", "why did I survive and not him?" syndrome. The survivor suffers for ever more, even if they are mentally strong.
Nevertheless, most people would rather survive wouldn't they?
Death or a lifetime of neverending emotional and physical pain.
I'd choose death thanks.
but isn't that a somewhat selfish attitude with regards to any loved ones that will mourn your death?
Not so glamourous when you twist it on its head.
And Vox, why haven't you responded to my pyschiatrist point, it took me bloody ages to find that bit from my course notes.
Hold on, where did you get a lifetime of neverending emotional and physical pain from? There's very little that will cause that - off the top of my head I can't think of anything.
I am certainly not promoting suicide. In general don't agree with it, and would rather see other solutions, than that...
...But answering your question, then I thought that it's interesting that (as far as I know) in some combats units within the military, the soldiers get a minimal amount of poison which they can hide, and in case of getting caught by the enemy, then that is supposed to "save" them.
So the idea of "death rather than abuse and torture" is probably more widespread than it was thought to be.
Incest cases, abusive partners...
I was thinking of a one-off event and the after-effects rather than an ongoing thing.
Yes, but I think that was possibly on the basis that you're going to get tortured, then killed. That's what I'd assumed anyway.
Not so, for that the murder would have to occur at exactly the point of death. (Yes, I realise how silly that sounds). You'd also have to assume that the victim considers it ok to die by unnatural causes.
I'm talking actual life expectancy for a certain person, not life expectancy in general. I'm sure that this is an unknown quantity.
On a separate issue, people are again raising the issue of a lifetime of pain and suffering, to which I again say that this is entirely down to the person.
Rarely last a lifetime. If the *effects* last a lifetime than that is as a result of emotional scarring that the victim has been unable to deal with. But the victim does have a chance to deal with it and continue with a "normal" life (whatever one of them is). A murder victim has no such option.
Well that's a bit pointless. You're assuming that every point in your lfie from then on is going to be utterly shit. I doubt that.
in your opinion maybe,
but if i had just lost both my legs, and seen my colleagues burn and bleed and fall to their deaths, or gone through anything that could stay with me and hurt for life, id pick death, because even if i was alive theres a good chance the bad times will outweigh the good, so for me dying and getting to see if there IS an afterlife or WHATEVER would be preferable. why would i want to see my family put through the pain of seeing me in obvios sufering? im going to die anyway, so id get it over with quickly so they can move on faster.
Frankly I think that's a bit insulting to anyone who is disabled or has been through a bad time. Are you suggesting they should all kill themselves because they won't be able to enjoy life now they have no legs? Nonsense.
eurgh. i have been through a mild bit of shit in my time, and im living out your theory. problem? all im saying is that most of the time i wish that i had been murdered not killed, but i keep on trying for my family's and my own sake because there is a chance i can be happy, and my family and friends dont see me suffering, otherwise i would commit suicide.
Final point from me, promise!!
But we're not talking about you in particular. The general point was that if you're still alive you have the chance to move on and maybe lead a happy/fulfilling life. I'm very sorry if that's not the case with you, but for many other people it may be the case.
I also think to assume that everyone who's has been injured or disabled in traumatic circumstances would be better off dead is a little crass, if not insulting, as Mist said. I don't think you should judge everyone else based just on your own experiences. As mentioned before, all situations and reactions are different.
Of course there is a very good chance you will be happy and have a fulfilling life. you are 14 now and the things that have happened to you must be very recent, so the feelings will still be quite raw. With help and counselling, hopefully youll be able to learn to live with what has happened and have as much of a happy life as anybody else.