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The Euro was a good first step...
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
We need less individual countries, and less currencies, so life is easier, the Euro was a good step, but we should have just one currency for the whole world, but thats a different discussion...
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If you take this thought one step further you could say that we shouldn't even have individual countries, just a new world order.
The Euro is great in so far as it offers zero exchange rates between european countries, and may eventually become a strong currency. But let's not pretend that it will be a force for peace - if anything it's going to cause more rows...
OK, its not likly to a gov. sponsered, if only because it makes working out tax's a bitch for them. But surely that only makes it more desireable to the people.
Want to know more? look here http://www.egold.com/
There is more than just this place working on this basis, and this is not the best one, but it is the only URL i can remember. the only troubles are
a) knowing which one of the companys doing this will be the one that goes the distance
b)the really quite high trasaction fee. These will reduce as more and more people use the system, until one day I will be able to buy my groceries from tesco online by gold
Do I detect a little xenophobia? Or are there other arguments to back up that statement?
Not saying that I necessarily disagree with you, more soliciting your broader views.
Sq.:cool:
Full political integration?
New World Order?
Puppet state?
(Oh, and Squinty... it's great to see a Mod like that...
Thankyou I think?
Mods! Can they not understand simple English!? Just commenting that steering the thread along in a constructive way is nice. That's all.
*sighs*
Catch ya' round.;)
The problem however, lies with the actual process of setting that up. In order to achieve such a thing you need to oppress billions of people and force them to join your way of thinking.
There are two ways such a thing might be realised.
First and foremost is war. Maybe the 3rd world war starts, large numbers of people are killed and a small number of countries manage to take over the planet. After more wars, the number dwindles to two. Those two fight and one side gains control.
Unfortunately, any union, no matter how good it sounds, that is brought about through violence and/or oppression will never work. There will always be dissidents, there will always be rebels, resistance groups and revolutionaries.
(PS, the is the category I believe the EU will fall into within a few years)
The second option is to wait and let things progress naturally. It may take 50 years, it may take 5000 but eventually people will have evolved beyond petty squabbling, beyond national boundaries, beyond nationalism. We just need to wait...
Once again theres an 'unfortunately'. Unfortunately some people arent willing to wait for natural progression. People behind such groups as the EU and the UN are trying to force union when people do not want it and are not ready. Sooner or later, the EU will resort to military means to force more countries into the union and will eventually turn into a dictatorship which will in turn collapse from within because of all the dissent.
:eek:
Rather a pessimistic outlook isn't it?
Hmmm.... do agree. Sounds a bit like a 'Lord of the Flies' proposition to me.
Time will tell eh?
The EU cannot work without overwhelming majority support. People just arent ready for that kind of thing yet.
Pessimistic? Not in my opinion
This breeds nationalism and we all know where that leads.
But the majority of people wouldn't like the idea of living in a country with people of a different religion, so there then would be civil war.
Not so much Xenophobia as realism. I agree with what Balddog and a few others have been saying that you just can't force countries to work together. It might happen over time but when you take into account certain graoups who hate each other, trying to tie them together just won't work. Look at the former Yugoslavia. You have all these factions forced together into one state and when that force is removed they can't wait to seperate into their original little groups.
Perhaps it is only the British who hate everybody else with passion. Most countries have some sort of rivalry going on with other nations, but the stupid, blind hatred the British have for say, the Germans and French is astonishing (and certainly not reciprocal). The Germans don't hate the British, and I get the feeling that even the French's dislike for Britain is only triggered by the constant xenophobic, bigoted and disgusting attitude and comments we have for them.
So much for 30 miles' separation from the Continent. Britain might as well be on the Moon, for all we seem to know and appreciate about our neighbours.
There was one three minute advert, for which there was one reference to Hitler, which lasted for three seconds.
Hardly "inundated" is it?
I don't recall anyone suggesting the brink of war, only that if you force people together, they will naturally rebel.
and of course this has nothing to do with being at war with one or the other for a vast part of our history :rolleyes:
Which may be caused by the fact that they try to fuck us over as often as possible. Where do their farmers blockade, German, Belgian, Swiss, Italian, Spanish borders, or is it the ports?
Whose Beef do they still ban?
~~~~~~
I don't hate the French or the Germans...must as I don't hate the US but I don't want political affiliation with them either. I like Britain being an independent state. What is wrong with that?
But received massive coverage on the media due to its unpleasant connotations and the number of ‘celebrities’ who contributed to the ad; not to mention great rejoicing in the europhobe press that lasted for days.
Forgive and forget comes to mind…
If Britain were to dislike every country it’s been at war with, there wouldn’t be many countries exempt. The obsession with France and Germany, one suspects, is more to do with an inferiority complex about food/drink/quality of life about the former, and ‘Rule Britannia’ war & football mentality about the latter. It’s time to move on. Everybody else has.
Publicised by the pro-Eruo lobby who thought it would detract from the remaining 2.57 minutes of the advert...
forget what? that France still has it's beef ban in place.
Our friends are they?
Hence why I pointed out that it wasn't just a one-off, this forms part of the history of our nation. Note I didn't mention the Spanish, who where our main competition in Elizabethan times. We've got over that. You shouldn't expect us to like the two countries who have cost us so many lives. One of them twice in the last 100 years.
ROFLMAO, inferiority complex?
More to do with a belief that we don't need political and monetary affiliation.
If I heard a reason why we should have politicaland monetary union, then I might understand. All we hear from the pro-lobby is that those who don't want union are just "little Englanders" rather than any form of real argument. A bit like you have here.
Currently we have the strongest currency and the most stable form of Govt. We are not tied down by Unions nor have we recently assimilated of Eastern neighbours like Germany has.
I think you'll find that is it Europe which needs us.
Im sorry but you are talking absolute, unmitigated bollocks. How dare you write off the legitimate concerns of the vast majority of Brits by lumping them in with the xenophobic minority. If you truly think that most Brits are like that then you sir are nothing more than a racist piece of shit and I find it incredibly ironic that you should be complaining about racist brits.
The British do not hate anyone. In case you missed it, we dont all think alike. Personally ive never heard that crap about the germans trying to take over again from anyone other than Americans and the odd drunk twat in a pub. Never have i heard that view expressed by anyone in a sensible frame of mind.
Myself, I have the utmost respect for Germans and view them as some of the finest people around. The French I dont have any problems with whatsoever. I disklike their government and certain aspects of their society(farmers/truckers) but no problems with the average frenchman.
But of course, I must be lying because the only possible way I could object to further EU integration is because im a xenophobic bigot right?
How long have you lived in Britain Aladdin? and more importantly, how long has it been since youve spent time in Spain?
You always moan about how evil and petty us Brits are so why the hell do you even want us in this union of yours? Why try and force us? Why cant you just leave us alone? Why are you even arguing this point unless the EU somehow needs us?
€uro Debate
This is an old debate, I'm not sure why the images don't work.
What it does show is a consistency of argument. There are those for the €uro. Those against are there for economic reasons, or for nationalistic reasons. Most of those against seem to think they're being subjugated. Those for seem to think that those against are xenophobic and Little Englanders. Odd how some things don't change.
Funny how the debate raged.
Interesting when you look at all of the arguments that the anti-lobby want a referendum, but the pro-lobby don't.
Wonder why that is?
I've never meant to include the totality, or even the majority of British people in the racist category. But there is certainly a good sized proportion that certainly has issues with France and Germany, and you'd have to be blind or live in another planet not to have observed it. Perhaps people here don't make much of the endless 'Bomber Harris' and Dambusters chants at football games. As it happens the Germans don't like it one little bit. And you might not join in, but if you have ever watched an England-Germany game you will have seen how many of England fans join in the chants at the ground. The same can be said for pretty much every other bloke watching the game in the pub.
Rags like the Sun or Mirror have produced a good number of tasteless (and insulting) front pages over the years, filled with war references when talking about Germany, or hairy armpits, garlic breath
et al references about the French. These papers are not only allowed to go to print with that offensive shit, but their front pages are often celebrated by their readers and other publications.
You might think it's all a bit of a laugh. It's certainly not for those at the receiving end.
If I thought Britain was an intolerant place I would not live here. But I'm able to see and condemn bad aspects of this native country, just as I do about Spain. So don't you call me racist.
With regard to EU/Euro membership:
I have never ignored or looked down on the economic arguments put forward by those against joining. The issue of whether having a single currency would be beneficiary to the British economy, and how this would affect interest rates, tax, etc, is a very important one and deserves serious scrutiny and debate.
But you'll have to admit that in the 'No' camp, those who use reasoned, economic arguments are probably outnumbered (and certainly out voiced) by the 'Save the Pound- Save Democracy' (!) campaigners. This lot is using arguments and comments that simply border on plain bigoted xenophobia. You only have to look at some of the more vocal organisations involved, and more worrying some of the individuals who have attached themselves to the campaign, to see why the pro-lobby comes with accusations of 'little englanders'.
Well-heeded debate is to be welcome by both sides of the argument, whatever the final outcome of Britain's membership. The stupid car stickers, the 'Save Democracy' brigade, the 'Good Old Pound Sterling, Good Old Queen's Head On Our Coins- We Don't Want Your Mickey Mouse Money' lot, the 'Up Yours' tabloid front pages do no favours to anyone.
For a nation state to remain as such it needs financial independence, the Euro removes that to a lrage extent and can only be a precurser to political unions. By "Save the Pound" people don't necessarily mean that they just want the Queen head on a coin, but that they want independence, the pound is just another symbol of that.
Other nations may want to hide their identity, that's up to them, but don't chastise people for wanting to retain theirs by suggesting that they are xenophobes.
Especially if there is no argument being put forward against such concerns...
Let me ask you this though - can they leave the Euro now? Or is their local economy tied to what the Euro does, and therefore directly affected by the other states. Can each individual state affect their internal economy now or do they have to go through the central bank?
I think I also suggested that there is you have yet to put forward a single argument for political and moentary union...
If you make racist comments like those above, then I will call you racist. Simple.
Football chants...Now theres a great way to gauge the opinions and views of an entire nation :rolleyes: Exactly what do you expect from a football game? The two nations are in direct competition and the supporters will come up with whatever chants they can. Im sorry but just WTF do you expect when Germany is playing England? The Germans have chants as well you know.
As for the hairy armpits and garlic breath thing..Well thats universal...How many bad teeth, bad food comments have we heard about us Brits? Bad food comments coming from you in this very thread for that matter.
Yes you have..All you ever talk about is the xenophobic, bigoted views of us nasty Brits...By focusing on that alone, you are dismissing the legitimate concerns over the Euro, to the bin.
Re Football: Sure there is rivalry between Germany and England, but that doesn't give anybody licence to chant anything they want. Some of the songs are offensive, and there are lines that shouldn’t be crossed. No one would think of joking about the Holocaust if you were playing Israel in the World Cup Final, and rightly so. The same principle should be applied to the Germany games.
And by focusing on the bigoted attitudes towards the Continent held by some, I'm actually working for the sensible 'no' campaigners as much as for the 'yes' campaigners (even if that is not my intention). I don't think such views or attitudes benefit the 'no' camp as a whole, do you?
Sorry but this is a different context and yes I believe that fans would chant about the holocaust at Israeli matches, indeed some away fans have done so in the past at Tottenham.
To suggest that football fans use taste and decourum when forming their chants is laughable. Look at the "Munich '58" chant used when United play, or the Harding chants which were used at Chelsea games and you'll get an idea of what I mean.
I really don't think that you can use football chants to cover the political attitudes of a country. Consider that racists chants are banned in the UK because they are offensive but that many of those using them wouldn't use such chants outside a stadium, or the "No Surrender to the IRA" chants which were recently used by travelling England fans. Do you believe that the majority of fans support either of these chants?
I know I don't.
You're right, bigotted attitudes don't offer anything of value to the "No" campaign. Which is why they also shouldn't be used by the "yes" campaign either. Correct me if I'm wrong but there is only one campaign in which everyone is lumped together as "little Englanders" and whose valid arguments are dismissed as a little consequence.
Why can't the "Yes" campaign debate the issues instead? Again, look at your posts to date on this thread and count how many times you have put forward an argument, and compare that with the amount of times you have referred to the "bigot" nature of the "No" campaign