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Woolwich

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I find it difficult to think of it as terrorism. To me it was just two mentally disturbed people acting alone. If a schizophrenic killed David Cameron (heaven forbid) and said that he did it to assist aliens in their takeover of planet earth would that be terrorism?

    Maybe that's a crap example but I'm genuinely interested or perhaps, if it's proved that these two men are mentally disturbed is it still terrorism? Or if it is proved that they were acting alone?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And how frequent are they?

    Admittedly, not very. But when they do happen they highlight how unprepared we are.

    Shikari, 5 minutes for unarmed officers to arrive is brilliant under normal circumstances, but 15 minutes before armed officers arrive, in our own capital? Not good at all. And trust me, if you live outside of London it takes longer.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Maybe that's a crap example but I'm genuinely interested or perhaps, if it's proved that these two men are mentally disturbed is it still terrorism? Or if it is proved that they were acting alone?

    Acting alone or in a group, if their attack was politically/ideologically motivated then it's an act of terror.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    In my mind they should be treated like Breivik was. Don't give them the platform they crave.

    I agree with this, actually. The media furore, the counter attacks by EDL types - this is exactly the reaction they were aiming for.

    This incident has showed the ignorance and low-level racism of a good chunk of the general population, though. Facebook has made for grim reading over the last few days.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    Admittedly, not very. But when they do happen they highlight how unprepared we are.

    That's the point. They are so rare that we don't let them rule the rest of our lives. The freedom's we have are there to be protected, not erroded in response to rare events.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kaff wrote: »
    I agree with this, actually. The media furore, the counter attacks by EDL types - this is exactly the reaction they were aiming for.

    This incident has showed the ignorance and low-level racism of a good chunk of the general population, though. Facebook has made for grim reading over the last few days.

    Yep. I've removed people from my "friends" list as a consequence. It's one thing to reprint an EDL/Britain First photo because the sentiment was actually a good one. It's entirely another to start posting things which they might say.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In my personal opinion (Yes my personal opinion, I’m exercising my right to free speech. If you have little tolerance to different points of views then just stop here). Multiculturalism just does not work, in theory it just can’t work, in practice it doesn’t work, and in the future it just won’t work. We need to stop pretending that we’re all the same, and that we’re all equal. We are equal in the sense we’re all born the same. But we all have difference requirements in the way we like to live our lives.

    We’re all allowed religious freedom to the extent that it doesn’t impose or effect other people’s lives. Which is fair enough, if you want to be a Muslim and sit and pray to Mohammed and go to a mosque that’s fine, no issues with that. But there’s a fine line between being just Muslim and an extremist. If you want an educational insight, I suggest reading the Qur’an, or just snippets of it – or researching Mohammed the prophet, he himself was a radicalised leader, with extreme views and that’s how he got things done, he wasn’t peaceful. He was a violent man, with violent beliefs. There are many quotes from the Qur’an clearly saying to either Kill or Convert. Yes just because it’s there doesn’t mean you have to do it. The same as it says in the bible that if you marry a woman who isn’t a virgin, she must be killed. People don’t follow these sure, because they’re silly. But it’s more of the fact if and when you chose to do something like this, if anyone asks why – then you have your religion behind you, you can say you were doing it because of your faith to your god.

    I think people who have ago at me on here need to take a breath of fresh air, and really open your eyes. Ignore what you’ve been told, ignore the media, ignore you friends, ignore Facebook and ignore all the social pressures and things that are holding you back from making a true judgement. Look with your own eyes, and think with your own brain for once. See what’s going on in this world, see the problems for what they really are.

    I’m not racist, racism by definition is- “The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as... Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief”. Islam and being Muslim goes across all nation, all walks of people, all races, all skin colours, gender and geographical locations. But then you’d probably go as far to say I have Religious prejudice, but I can promise you that even if it was two Christians beheading some guy that they’d be getting the same paragraph.

    The issue we have is the people of this country are scared of being deemed a ‘racist’, the media and government push this message all the time, it’s making people fearful of saying how they truly feel. I’ve lived in Plymouth, Bude, Dawlish and Reading. I’ve visited and stayed with people all over the country, as I’m sure most of you have. But the thing I notice everywhere, is everyone’s secret racism. Yes actual racism now, I was at a party two day ago, everyone there of the age 20 to 40+ it was a civilised garden party, not a lets rave and get trashed pass out sort of thing. And the recent events that have happened got everyone talking, and not one person there didn’t agree on the fact that enough was enough, this was it. We’ve been bored of it for time, but it’s time to get non-british people to leave. No more ‘anchor’ babies, no more messing around. Time for deportation. Everyone I speak to who has a mind of their own and is sick to death of this.

    Anyway back to the main point of multiculturalism, it’s been proven not to work at all. Sweden the best example of this, was once a ‘utopia’ of multi-cultural success. But now it’s hit the brink. They offer free asylum to people, with housing, food and benefits. Open doors policy to anyone. They have the highest percentage of immigrants than anywhere else. And they’re now in flame, rioting and destruction look it up. They have immigrants coming in at roughly 1,250 per week. Many areas of Sweden are no “NO-GO” areas, they’re off limits to normal people – purely by fear. Many areas have been taken over by islamists, that even police and other emergency services are scared to go in them. They have lost control and they freely express Sharia’s law (Yes all you females, you understand that this will be coming over here). The fire brigade refuse to go into parts of Sweden without police escorts. The country is far ahead of ours on the path to utter destruction.
    Why is the Middle East war torn? Why is the war coming back home? Why are we seeing it on our streets?

    The man who did the beheading tells us a lot. His actions, was terrible and disgusting. But listen to his words, listen to what has to say. He’s right.
    Our government does not care about us, they will not help us.

    One final thing from my 950 word wall of text. They can and will use democracy against us. What if the majority in this country becomes Muslim? If the get the majority vote of a Muslim leader, brought into power with the ability to change and pass laws. Our system against us. And no this isn’t irrational fear.

    -Feel free to prove me wrong or challenge me on anything, it’s a debate not an argument, instead of jumping off the deep end for once, how about just explain in a logical manor how I’m wrong.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    Admittedly, not very. But when they do happen they highlight how unprepared we are.

    Shikari, 5 minutes for unarmed officers to arrive is brilliant under normal circumstances, but 15 minutes before armed officers arrive, in our own capital? Not good at all. And trust me, if you live outside of London it takes longer.

    True but if you think about it. In 15 minutes you have to get the specialised team suited, booted, locked loaded and briefed for the current situation at hand. Any quicker I think mistakes would be made that they'd have to answer for.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Shikari wrote: »
    True but if you think about it. In 15 minutes you have to get the specialised team suited, booted, locked loaded and briefed for the current situation at hand. Any quicker I think mistakes would be made that they'd have to answer for.

    Armed officers are meant to be ready for deployment immediately.
  • AuroraAurora Part of the furniture Posts: 11,720 An Original Mixlorian
    Shikari wrote: »
    you want to be a Muslim and sit and pray to Mohammed PBUH and go to a mosque that?s fine

    Muslims don't pray to Mohammed PBUH, they pray towards Allah, Mohammed PBUH is one of the messengers of God.
    Shikari wrote: »
    Mohammed the prophet, he himself was a radicalised leader, with extreme views and that?s how he got things done, he wasn?t peaceful. He was a violent man, with violent beliefs. There are many quotes from the Qur?an clearly saying to either Kill or Convert.

    Oh really? o.o - Mohammed was a leader, he was the last messenger. He Was not a violent man nor did he have violent beliefs, he followed the words of Allah, but please share these Kill and Convert quotes?

    At least get the basic facts write, Muslims pray towards Allah, not Mohammed PBUH, but we remember Mohammed during our prayers.



    - EDL Is shizzle cakes, we had a bunch of them march down the street, I think it was around 70, as I recall, all walking towards the local mosque, thankfully nobody was injured, and we had police cars gathered around it protecting it. This is an insane cookie situation. EDL people are just people who have nothing else better to do with their time, and I must admit, people this the user I've quoted, seem like very ignorant people.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I grew up in fucking Bradford. I'm well aware of "multiculturalism" is.

    Saying all Muslims are terrorists because of a handful of extremists is like saying all Christians are terrorists because of the Westboro Baptists.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Shikari wrote: »
    it?s time to get non-british people to leave.

    How 'non-british' are we talking? My mum is not British, should she leave? Should I? I was born in Leeds, where would you like me to go back to?

    Actually, hold on. None of this is relevant because my mum and I are both white. Cause that's what we're really talking about, aren't we?

    Maybe it's just cause I don't have a mind of my own that I think it is contemptible to judge people solely on their nationality, their religion or on the colour of their skin. Silly me.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kaff wrote: »
    How 'non-british' are we talking? My mum is not British, should she leave? Should I? I was born in Leeds, where would you like me to go back to?

    Actually, hold on. None of this is relevant because my mum and I are both white. Cause that's what we're really talking about, aren't we?

    Maybe it's just cause I don't have a mind of my own that I think it is contemptible to judge people solely on their nationality, their religion or on the colour of their skin. Silly me.

    This :yes:

    My father is Dutch, but I was born and have lived in England all my life, excluding 18 months. I'm proud of my heritage. Do I need to leave too?

    Yes this is P&D but saying multiculturalism doesn't work offends many users. They are the proof that it does work because they're interacting in a mixed community. Crazy that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Shikari wrote: »
    Anyway back to the main point of multiculturalism, it’s been proven not to work at all. Sweden the best example of this, was once a ‘utopia’ of multi-cultural success. But now it’s hit the brink. They offer free asylum to people, with housing, food and benefits. Open doors policy to anyone. They have the highest percentage of immigrants than anywhere else. And they’re now in flame, rioting and destruction look it up. They have immigrants coming in at roughly 1,250 per week. Many areas of Sweden are no “NO-GO” areas, they’re off limits to normal people – purely by fear. Many areas have been taken over by islamists, that even police and other emergency services are scared to go in them.

    Check your facts, the riots in Sweden are not about Islam, they're about inequality.
    More than 20 cars torched in one night. School classrooms gutted by fire. Fifty far-right extremists chasing immigrants around a suburb. (link)

    That doesn't sound much like Islamists causing riots to me.

    Yes, there are suggestions that a lot of the rioters are immigrants to Sweden, but immigrants are also those who are most likely to be destitute.
    A recent report by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development said that income inequality had grown faster in Sweden than in any other industrialized nation between 1985 and the end of the past decade[.] (link)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Shikari wrote: »
    Many areas of Sweden are no “NO-GO” areas, they’re off limits to normal people -

    Define normal for us?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Shikari wrote: »
    Many areas of Sweden are no “NO-GO” areas, they’re off limits to normal people – purely by fear. Many areas have been taken over by islamists, that even police and other emergency services are scared to go in them. They have lost control and they freely express Sharia’s law (Yes all you females, you understand that this will be coming over here). The fire brigade refuse to go into parts of Sweden without police escorts.

    I don't believe this to be remotely true. If you google 'Sweden NO-GO areas', the results are a lot of people who aren't Swedish writing blog posts with no evidence what so ever to back up their statements except other blog posts by people who aren't Swedish. Most of these blogs have names like 'IslamWatch' or 'Defending Freedom'.
  • **helen****helen** Mod malarkist Posts: 9,235 Listening Ear
    Shikari wrote: »
    We’ve been bored of it for time, but it’s time to get non-british people to leave. No more ‘anchor’ babies, no more messing around. Time for deportation. Everyone I speak to who has a mind of their own and is sick to death of this.

    Immigration and economics

    Multiculturalism can work
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This story about a mosque in York is my good news story of the day - what a top idea!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kaff wrote: »
    How 'non-british' are we talking? My mum is not British, should she leave? Should I? I was born in Leeds, where would you like me to go back to?

    Actually, hold on. None of this is relevant because my mum and I are both white. Cause that's what we're really talking about, aren't we?

    Maybe it's just cause I don't have a mind of my own that I think it is contemptible to judge people solely on their nationality, their religion or on the colour of their skin. Silly me.

    I'm not from England originally. I'm still holding out hope that the EDL/BNP/Fascists will pay for me to go "home". I'm not really expecting them to- I'm white, innit.

    There always has to be a bogeyman to justify the hundreds of billions of pounds we spend on the army and on MI5. 20 years ago it was the Irish who were all terrorists, regardless of what they did, and now it is the "Islamists". Not sure who they are, so we'll just assume anyone who's a bit brown is a Muslim.

    And all this is stirred up by a man who is so fucking retarded he can't even remember what he's called. We think he's really called Stephen, he tries to say he's called Tommy, his passport says he's called Paul and he tried to get into America using a passport in the name of Andrew. And now we have the ever-insightful Shikari- a boy so stupid he takes his username from an Indian word whilst wanting to send Indians "home"- saying that anyone who questions any of this has been "brainwashed".

    And these people are allowed to vote? Give me strength. I couldn't trust racists like Shikari or StephenTommyPaulAndrew to find their arse with both hands and a map.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm not from England originally. I'm still holding out hope that the EDL/BNP/Fascists will pay for me to go "home". I'm not really expecting them to- I'm white, innit.

    I'd happily tell the dickheads I'm Australian if it meant I was automatically deported with a bit of a golden goodbye.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    I'd happily tell the dickheads I'm Australian if it meant I was automatically deported with a bit of a golden goodbye.

    I'd be Canadian
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    @Shikari

    This debate often suffers from the pendulum effect, where one side over-corrects for the deficiencies of the other, and rarely does the actual meat of the issue get tackled. I see your views as one side of that pendulum: I don't agree that multiculturalism doesn't work. It's demonstrable that different cultures can happily commingle and operate alongside each other. I agree that there are pervasive aspects of some cultures for which there is no place in a modern, secular democracy - Islam as manifest by a minority of Muslims being the current example.

    The problem with this debate is that if you want to achieve productive discussion you need to be very careful about how you espouse your views - and in your case I think you need to re-examine what your views actually are.

    Also, unfortunately for you (and frequently me) there's little guaranteed to be less productive in discourse than someone, usually a liberal, in a state of moral ecstasy because they've managed to avoid tackling a difficult question and instead got to call you a racist; as Sam Harris points out, it'd be a desperately sad world to live in where only racists and bigots are concerned about the destructive elements of the parties of God.

    I guess in summary what I'm saying is: I agree that there clearly is a moral sickness among a minority of Muslims in this country (and abroad). And I definitely don't want to exist in a world where to talk about it is to become assailed with the like of the BNP and the EDL. I'm happy to talk about Western culpability, religion's role, psychopathy, etc., but I want to have the discussion openly and honestly, and it not to descend into tribal name calling where obvious issues are disingenuously hidden.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Let me explain why Shikari is a racist for those who struggle to understand difficult concepts.

    Saying there are bastards in the world is fairly uncontroversial. Saying that the two men who murdered the soldier are complete bastards is fairly uncontroversial. Even saying that some people who profess an Islamic faith are utter bastards is fairly uncontroversial.

    Where we get into racism is when we argue that an Islamic faith and being a bastard have a direct causal relationship. By talking about "multiculturalism not working", Shikari is arguing that only people from other cultural backgrounds are capable of being a bastard. By talking about the clear "moral sickness among a minority of Muslims in this country", you are arguing that only Muslims are capable of being bastards. Shikari and you are both linking someone's cultural and racial background to the acts they commit, as though only certain people are capable of it. Whichever way you want to spin it, that's racism.

    Shikari is a racist by trying to argue that getting rid of "multiculturalism", i.e. sending all the brown people "home", is the cure to all ills. He is essentially blaming everything on the "other", defining all the millions of BME people in the UK by the actions of two people acting alone and placing the blame for all "evil" on the shoulders of BME people. That, whichever way you cut it, is racism.

    The simple honest truth is that "terrorism", using whatever definition you care to use, is not something that is done exclusively by one race of people.

    I find it telling that people including Timothy McVeigh and Anders Breivik are rarely referred to as "terrorists". Certainly using Shikari's logic McVeigh proves that all soldiers are terrorists and so does it matter if they get killed?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't know anyone who hasn't called Breivik a terrorist loon. I don't know anyone who didn't refer to the IRA as terrorists. I don't know anyone who doesn't think ETA aren't terrorists. To say that because someone is white they can't be a terrorist is ridiculous. The perception when you say 'terrorist' maybe first of a muslim terrorist, but that's because in the past 20 years the majority of major terrorist attacks that I've lived through were a result of muslim extremism.

    Also is there a need to descend to ad hominems repeatedly? "we have the ever-insightful Shikari- a boy so stupid he takes his username from an Indian word whilst wanting to send Indians "home"". Why not talk about the issues instead of getting on a soapbox to repeatedly shout racist. I think you've made your point of view clear.

    I also think you are stretching a great deal by creating equivalences where Shikari hasn't said that. E.g. "Shikari is a racist by trying to argue that getting rid of "multiculturalism", i.e. sending all the brown people "home", is the cure to all ills." Maybe Shikari does think that, but debate the argument he has written down, not the opinion you think he holds.

    There certainly is an issue within Islam, and you can even find it discussed on Islamic forums. It's not that the problem is Islam, but within it. There's a reason shia and sunni muslims don't get along so well. For a lot of westernised muslims there is a hidden shame that the 1.2 billion muslims in the world punch above their weight in violence, corruption, exploitation and hate, and punch below their weight in peace, tolerance, love and prosperity.

    Also interestingly with Sweden - there is a good example of why it isn't working so well there but not for the reasons Shikari alludes to. It's an extremely racist country. But that's a chicken and egg argument - problems because they're racist, or racist because there's problems?

    For the record I don't agree multiculturalism can't work, but honestly from the replies here a lot of you are fairly blinkered in your rose tinted view of the world that it will always work and the reason it won't is because racism. There's plenty of reasons that aren't to do with race, but are to do with ideological differences, that are bound to cause tension between different cultures.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You miss my point with Breivik and with McVeigh.

    When Breivik guns down an island full of children he's a "lone wolf", he's "acting alone". When McVeigh parks a massive bomb outside a federal building he's a "lone wolf". He's- you guessed it- "acting alone". Both have plenty in common- they're white, they're far-right libertarians, they're both fond of militias. The only difference between them, really, is that the Yanks fried McVeigh. They're both right-wing white men but I'm not exactly deafened by the demands for all right-wing white men to be incarcerated forever without trial.

    Yet you get two people stab a man and shout about Allah and suddenly it's some fucking Muslim conspiracy and the only solution is to send them "home".

    Where you get different groups you'll get conflict, at least sometimes; this doesn't matter if we're talking about cultural background or the FA Cup. But to try and argue that "multiculturalism" is the root cause of everything is absolutely retarded. It isn't a case of me using "rose coloured blinkers" to say that, it is a fact. It certainly isn't naive to say that a lot of issues in this country stem from racism and from attacks on the vulnerable; the powerful hiding the latter behind the former.

    As for your last point about "hidden shame" that different streams of Islam have disagreements, I'll say one thing: go to the Falls Road then try and argue it's all about Islam.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You've changed your point with Breivik and McVeigh. Both myself and ShyBoy call them terrorists and we do so because they're using violence to further a political agenda. I'm happy to examine any commonality in their motives, but I don't know how many terrorists have to leave video messages expounding on their religious motivations before we're allowed to put Islam on the discussion table.

    I also think you make a category error when accusing people of being racist for criticising Islam. Islam is an ideology; Muslims are the followers of that ideology - <platitude>the vast majority of whom are as appalled and upset by the violence as anyone else</platitude>. Unless you have Richard Dart and Michael Adebowale pegged as of the same race...

    I agree that our tribal nature is one of the fundamental causes of conflict, but to pretend that ideas, belief systems and ideology play no part in exacerbating things is to deny the patently obvious. No one's saying all Muslims are terrorists or that all terrorists are Muslim or that the Qu'ran is one big terrorist training manual - it would be absurd to do so. And I feel desperately sorry for my Muslim friends whose deepest integrities are assaulted by the reactionary right in its various guises. But we don't allow that to take Islam and its interpretants off the table when discussing the matter.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Let me explain why Shikari is a racist for those who struggle to understand difficult concepts.

    Saying there are bastards in the world is fairly uncontroversial. Saying that the two men who murdered the soldier are complete bastards is fairly uncontroversial. Even saying that some people who profess an Islamic faith are utter bastards is fairly uncontroversial.

    Where we get into racism is when we argue that an Islamic faith and being a bastard have a direct causal relationship. By talking about "multiculturalism not working", Shikari is arguing that only people from other cultural backgrounds are capable of being a bastard. By talking about the clear "moral sickness among a minority of Muslims in this country", you are arguing that only Muslims are capable of being bastards. Shikari and you are both linking someone's cultural and racial background to the acts they commit, as though only certain people are capable of it. Whichever way you want to spin it, that's racism.

    Shikari is a racist by trying to argue that getting rid of "multiculturalism", i.e. sending all the brown people "home", is the cure to all ills. He is essentially blaming everything on the "other", defining all the millions of BME people in the UK by the actions of two people acting alone and placing the blame for all "evil" on the shoulders of BME people. That, whichever way you cut it, is racism.

    The simple honest truth is that "terrorism", using whatever definition you care to use, is not something that is done exclusively by one race of people.

    I find it telling that people including Timothy McVeigh and Anders Breivik are rarely referred to as "terrorists". Certainly using Shikari's logic McVeigh proves that all soldiers are terrorists and so does it matter if they get killed?

    Let me explain how you're a full blown retard.
    1. Islam isn't a race, therefore it isn't racism. Anyone can be Muslim.
    2. I'm not saying Islam is the problem. Just that people who follow it diehard, cause problems.
    3. Like I said, if it were Christians doing the bombings and the killings and the problems, it'd be them i'm upset with.
    4. Islam isn't a race, therefore it isn't racism. Anyone can be Muslim (Just thought i'd point that out again if you didn't quite get it.)
    5. My mums English and my dad is Greek.

    Another thing at no point did I ever say "moral sickness among a minority of Muslims in this country". DON'T QUOTE ME ON THAT.

    "Shikari is a racist by trying to argue that getting rid of "multiculturalism", i.e. sending all the brown people "home""

    I am not a racist, you simple do not understand simple logic, this defies me to ever respond to you. You're so brainwashed with bollocks from the media it astounds me.
    I tell you what, go online look up racism, and racists. The definitions and putting them into examples, so you can actually use that word properly yes? And not make yourself look stupid.

    I don't have problems, with anyone black, white, half cast, gingers whoever else you can think of, i do not have a problem. Anyone can live in this country no matter what country you're from, or what colour your are.

    Religion isn't a race, and I do deem Islam to be an issue. It's like if you buy 500 eggs, some will be broken, standard, every single damn time, some eggs will be fucked.
    This is the same with Muslims (And all religions, but they're not kicking off - west boro baptish church for example, but they're cunts, but peaceful cunts).

    Where as we're at war/conflict/have soldiers in Muslim countries, killing innocent people which is a by product of war among many other things that'd piss Muslims off for doing whatever it is we're doing. If we weren't doing anything then they wouldn't be 'terrorising us'.

    So we've got three choices:
    1. Get rid of trouble makers (And hope that there aren't more, but there will be)
    2. Get rid of Islam
    3. Or stop upsetting them


    Although I'd just like to point out, where in the middle east, where the majority is Muslim, is there not a problem? I mean where are there Muslims that aren't causing Islamic related problems related to their religion because of their religion?

    And I don't have issues with anyone who practises Islam normally, without hurting others. It's just cutting off the infected foot, to say the rest of the body.

    But look the majority don't think like me (Probably for the best), and we're never going to remove the people causing the problems.

    But what I can do, is sit here, watching people like you, make these choices in respect of hoping they don't get called a "Racist" trying to stay all "politically correct". Then when your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend is sat on that train.

    When they're in the same carriage as that bomber.
    I can watch the look on your face, when you're the very reason, your loved one has died. And i'll sit here and i'll say i told you so.

    Because the two people who murdered that soldier were right, every single damn thing they said was right. But what they did was hideously wrong.

    Your government does not care, and this will carry on.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Shikari wrote: »
    Multiculturalism just does not work, in theory it just can’t work, in practice it doesn’t work, and in the future it just won’t work.

    That’s a pretty firm assertion. Do you have any evidence? You know, which would counter the fact that the vast majority of the population just gets on with their lives, happily co-existing, happily sharing cultural influences.
    We need to stop pretending that we’re all the same, and that we’re all equal. We are equal in the sense we’re all born the same.

    Haven’t you contradicted yourself there?
    But we all have difference requirements in the way we like to live our lives.

    Are you saying that society cannot cope with this? Society itself is constructed from individuals living their lives in their own way. What I do is not the same as you, so why can’t we exist side by side?
    But there’s a fine line between being just Muslim and an extremist.

    No there isn’t. It’s a huge leap. Just as it is for any other religion.
    If you want an educational insight, I suggest reading the Qur’an, or just snippets of it – or researching Mohammed the prophet, he himself was a radicalised leader, with extreme views and that’s how he got things done, he wasn’t peaceful. He was a violent man, with violent beliefs. There are many quotes from the Qur’an clearly saying to either Kill or Convert. Yes just because it’s there doesn’t mean you have to do it. The same as it says in the bible that if you marry a woman who isn’t a virgin, she must be killed. People don’t follow these sure, because they’re silly. But it’s more of the fact if and when you chose to do something like this, if anyone asks why – then you have your religion behind you, you can say you were doing it because of your faith to your god.

    So basically your argument there falls in on itself. There are passages advocating violence in most religious texts, just as there are those who will use them as justification for vile acts. This isn’t a religious issue, it’s a mental health issue. Unless you are arguing that the only people capable of violence against another are religious extremists.
    I think people who have ago at me on here need to take a breath of fresh air, and really open your eyes. Ignore what you’ve been told, ignore the media, ignore you friends, ignore Facebook and ignore all the social pressures and things that are holding you back from making a true judgement. Look with your own eyes, and think with your own brain for once. See what’s going on in this world, see the problems for what they really are.

    We are, but I would question if the same could be said of you. Violence exists across the planet, it’s committed by people in the name of religion, in the name of politics (EDL, Bader-Meinhof for example).

    What you seem to be doing is singling out one religion and the small minority of that religion to back up some spurious assertions. You are suggesting that all Muslims are the problem here and that fits the definition you are trying to hide behind. You are prejudiced. At least have the integrity to admit it.
    I’ve visited and stayed with people all over the country, as I’m sure most of you have. But the thing I notice everywhere, is everyone’s secret racism. Yes actual racism now, I was at a party two day ago, everyone there of the age 20 to 40+ it was a civilised garden party, not a lets rave and get trashed pass out sort of thing. And the recent events that have happened got everyone talking, and not one person there didn’t agree on the fact that enough was enough, this was it. We’ve been bored of it for time, but it’s time to get non-british people to leave

    So, the question any statistician would ask is whether the group is actually representative of anything other than the people you mix with who are more likely to hold similar views to you.

    Ask the Tory Party conference delegates if they will vote Labour at the next election and you’ll find a pretty clear one sided answer. Ask the BNP about their views on race relations and I’m pretty certain that you’ll get a large volume of support for deportation. Ask my Facebook friends and you will get very short thrift for the policies of the EDL, BNP and indeed the Tory party.

    As an aside, define “non-British”.
    Anyway back to the main point of multiculturalism, it’s been proven not to work at all. Sweden the best example of this, was once a ‘utopia’ of multi-cultural success. But now it’s hit the brink. They offer free asylum to people, with housing, food and benefits. Open doors policy to anyone. They have the highest percentage of immigrants than anywhere else. And they’re now in flame, rioting and destruction look it up. They have immigrants coming in at roughly 1,250 per week. Many areas of Sweden are no “NO-GO” areas, they’re off limits to normal people – purely by fear. Many areas have been taken over by islamists, that even police and other emergency services are scared to go in them. They have lost control and they freely express Sharia’s law (Yes all you females, you understand that this will be coming over here). The fire brigade refuse to go into parts of Sweden without police escorts. The country is far ahead of ours on the path to utter destruction.

    Look at the language you used there – immigrants and “normal people”. But, of course, you aren’t racist in anyway.
    Why is the Middle East war torn? Why is the war coming back home? Why are we seeing it on our streets?

    Because people want power. Before immigration was such a major part of British society we fought a civil war, there was the War of the Roses, we fought two World Wars and a huge number of smaller conflicts. None of that was because we were Muslim, was it?
    The man who did the beheading tells us a lot. His actions, was terrible and disgusting. But listen to his words, listen to what has to say. He’s right.
    Our government does not care about us, they will not help us.

    And that is the issue. Not religion or immigration status. The disaffected are fighting back in any way they know how. People will hide behind any grouping their feel comfortable with, whether that is their religion (how many “everyone hates Christians” stories have you read?), their politics or as in your case simple racism. We saw it in the UK in the 30s and in the 60s/70s – yet in spite of your protestations we are still here.
    They can and will use democracy against us. What if the majority in this country becomes Muslim? If the get the majority vote of a Muslim leader, brought into power with the ability to change and pass laws. Our system against us. And no this isn’t irrational fear.

    That you use “they” just proves how irrational your “fear” actually is. Especially when you note that less than 5% of the population (as at 2011 census) are “Muslim”.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    @Shikari

    This debate often suffers from the pendulum effect, where one side over-corrects for the deficiencies of the other, and rarely does the actual meat of the issue get tackled. I see your views as one side of that pendulum: I don't agree that multiculturalism doesn't work. It's demonstrable that different cultures can happily commingle and operate alongside each other. I agree that there are pervasive aspects of some cultures for which there is no place in a modern, secular democracy - Islam as manifest by a minority of Muslims being the current example.

    The problem with this debate is that if you want to achieve productive discussion you need to be very careful about how you espouse your views - and in your case I think you need to re-examine what your views actually are.

    Also, unfortunately for you (and frequently me) there's little guaranteed to be less productive in discourse than someone, usually a liberal, in a state of moral ecstasy because they've managed to avoid tackling a difficult question and instead got to call you a racist; as Sam Harris points out, it'd be a desperately sad world to live in where only racists and bigots are concerned about the destructive elements of the parties of God.

    I guess in summary what I'm saying is: I agree that there clearly is a moral sickness among a minority of Muslims in this country (and abroad). And I definitely don't want to exist in a world where to talk about it is to become assailed with the like of the BNP and the EDL. I'm happy to talk about Western culpability, religion's role, psychopathy, etc., but I want to have the discussion openly and honestly, and it not to descend into tribal name calling where obvious issues are disingenuously hidden.

    Thank you, I completely agree with most of what you've said.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Shikari wrote: »
    So we've got two choice:
    1. Get rid of trouble makers (And hope that there aren't more, but there will be)
    2. Get rid of Islam
    3. Or stop upsetting them

    You know that's three choices, right?
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