Home Politics & Debate
If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Read the community guidelines before posting ✨

BA and strikes

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article6466748.ece

Having a look at the above article, if it can be considered factually correct in some amounts (for 2008), then the people wanting to strike really concern me. I wonder if they realise that repeated and continued strikes will eventually lead to BA requiring to make further cuts than those discussed in current negotiations, and eventually to BA going bust. Where will their jobs be then?

This is an article from last year, highlighting the fact that the unions to me seemed detiremined to screw holiday makers over at any and all cost. Oh yes its still going on this year.

I can understand that not all BA cabin (s)crew voted for strike, nor they should they all be tarnished with the same brush, this is all aimed at those who are striking. I understand people become accustomed to the money they earn, nobody anywhere ever likes to take a pay cut and will always fight tooth and nail to keep what they have. However;
Data from the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) shows for the first time how much higher BA’s wage costs are than its rivals. The average salary for BA’s 14,000 cabin crew, including bonuses and allowances, is £29,900, compared with £14,400 at Virgin Atlantic and £20,200 at easyJet. BA’s pilots earn an average of £107,600, compared with £89,500 at Virgin and £71,400 at easyJet.

So they allready earn a hell of a lot more than other people at other airlines do, not that im advocating that BA staff are not worth it, however making the argument that they work in tough conditions isnt that rigid. Im sure cabin crew from other airlines do a similar job? Think of the soldier/marine sent to the front line, £17k a year (plus an op bonus of 2k for the 6 month tour), often in considerable more danger and stress. Yeah they chose to be a soldier, but BA cabin crew chose their job too.



BA began intensive negotiations with trade unions representing its cabin crew yesterday in an attempt to cut costs. It wants to reduce crew numbers by the equivalent of 2,000, through voluntary redundancy or staff turnover

So rather than making people redundant, they offered voluntary redundancy first, and allowing staff turn over to take its course? Its a bit more reasonable than just getting rid of them.



If this target is not reached, the airline will consider making compulsory redundancies.

Harsh, but this isnt just BA being arsey about it, they wont be the first nor the last business to do this (after priorly giving people the choice), and im sure the people still in a job when BA remains in business will appreciate it.



The airline has also put forward a range of 32 cost-saving measures that it wants to discuss with unions. These include cutting holidays by two days to 34 and reducing the allowances for overseas travel. BA lost £401 million last year after a collapse in passenger numbers and is demanding cost reductions from all parts of its business.

Cost reductions from all areas of business is a good idea, so its not just the cabin crew etc. Notably they would still get 4 days holiday a year more than some people.



Unions representing cabin crew and ground staff have said that they are willing to consider temporary cuts to help the airline through the recession but they have ruled out permanent changes to employee terms and conditions

Shows good will on the part of the union, in that they are willing to help BA in the short term. Also helping out their union members by protecting what they allready have.

Whilst I think a lot of BA's problems stem from management, and unavoidable circumstances (the fall out from recession), they are doing what I see is necessary to survive. Im not by any means saying they are completely in the right, both sides have issues which have fucked me off in this, though my final closing point in this rant it;

If the trade unions are that desperate to protect the jobs and benefits of its members, what are the trade unions going to do when BA goes bust because of the amounts of money being lost through strike action?

Also, who had the idea of pissing off a lot of the public by having so much strike action at once, and over the periods they have. If i didnt have a sense of reason and looked out completely for myself and didnt loook at the wider picture, then Id feel like hunting down BA cabin crew and smiting them.

Strike action appears to have got them nowhere in my eyes and has only done the following things.
  • Made BA even poorer
  • Pissed off the public and made them fly with someone else
  • Strengthened BA's resolve to continue with plans for pay cuts

All of which pretty much screws the cabin crew themselves.

ps interesting how so many of the cabin crew do turn up to work during strikes, much more than is expected, making me wonder something else, is this the union urging its members to make a point, or the members of the union trying to make a point.
Beep boop. I'm a bot.

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    BA's problems stem from a management who thought they had a god given right to expect people to fly with them and ignored the competition and unions who think that they god given right to expect people to fly with them and ignored the fact the company is going down the pan...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ooohhhhh Broken Angel what have you done now !! :d
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G wrote: »
    [*]Made BA even poorer
    Made who in BA poorer? I'll bet the CEO is on over £700K
    [*]Strengthened BA's resolve to continue with plans for pay cuts
    Tbh, if BA wanted to make cuts, they would go ahead regardless of what people did.
    So they allready earn a hell of a lot more than other people at other airlines do, not that im advocating that BA staff are not worth it, however making the argument that they work in tough conditions isnt that rigid. Im sure cabin crew from other airlines do a similar job? Think of the soldier/marine sent to the front line, £17k a year (plus an op bonus of 2k for the 6 month tour), often in considerable more danger and stress. Yeah they chose to be a soldier, but BA cabin crew chose their job too
    I thought BA start on around £16K?

    Tbh I'm no expert on the BA strikes and not the type to use them anyway, but there must be a reason why people are striking. More than what a Tory paper like The Times is publishing.

    Voluntary redundancy is all very well, but if you've seen the job market atm, it's scary. If somebody offered me voluntary redundancy in my job (which given the new government may happen in a few months), I would not feel that it's 'reasonable' or a good thing... It's a slightly nicer way of telling you to bugger off.
    Harsh, but this isnt just BA being arsey about it, they wont be the first nor the last business to do this (after priorly giving people the choice), and im sure the people still in a job when BA remains in business will appreciate it.
    Whether or not BA are the first or last business to take the action they do, whether or not the people still in a job realise it, people will still have a crappy time. Whether or not people get paid more than other airlines... It's all irrelevant if you have a family to feed and no job.

    I don't know if I support the aims of BA cabing crew because all sources I find seem to be one extreme or the other... But I support their right to strike. People don't go days without pay for nothing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Every single one of those lazy cunts currently on strike deserves the sack. That way, they can enjoy the sunshine that little bit more than they're doing at the moment.

    I'd also have the cunts in the trade unions boiled alive.

    And probably Willie Walsh at the same time too.

    *waits for someone to come along to tell him off for calling people a see you next Tuesday again...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think that the union are being complete assholes! These strikes will do nothing but fold the company, then all staff will lose their jobs. BA staff should realise how lucky they are.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So what if the CEO is on £700k, these strikes are costing the company millions.

    The strikes are about the fact BA are negotiating over the cuts, to avoid total all out strike.

    The strikes seem to be occuring more so because of what the union is trying to push.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sack the lot of them. Problem sorted. :thumb:

    Just need a government willing to take on the unions.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Calvin wrote: »
    Sack the lot of them. Problem sorted. :thumb:

    Just need a government willing to take on the unions.

    Too right?

    The reason I think its the unions with the power, is that a hell of a lot of people are turning up, despite supposedly being on strike.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Calvin wrote: »
    Sack the lot of them. Problem sorted. :thumb:

    Just need a government willing to take on the unions.

    People should be allowed to strike. The fact that its a kamikaze strike doesn't change that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    People should be allowed to strike. The fact that its a kamikaze strike doesn't change that.

    Yes the should be allowed, but BA should also be allowed to sack them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Every single one of those lazy cunts currently on strike deserves the sack. That way, they can enjoy the sunshine that little bit more than they're doing at the moment.

    I'd also have the cunts in the trade unions boiled alive.

    And probably Willie Walsh at the same time too.

    *waits for someone to come along to tell him off for calling people a see you next Tuesday again...
    Well aren't you a lovely boy. :d
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    Well aren't you a lovely boy. :d
    And isn't this a lovely surprise?

    "The union chief behind the *British Airways dispute flew out for a luxury sunshine holiday *yesterday - as his cabin crew members began a fresh strike, ruining trips for thousands. While 10,000 BA customers had their travel plans axed and hundreds of flights were cancelled, Tony *Woodley and his wife Janet jetted to Cyprus for a week's break at an exclusive air-conditioned villa with private swimming pool. Mr Woodley, 62, did not fly with BA, ensuring that his trip was not affected by the industrial action..."

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. Cunt.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    And isn't this a lovely surprise?

    "The union chief behind the *British Airways dispute flew out for a luxury sunshine holiday *yesterday - as his cabin crew members began a fresh strike, ruining trips for thousands. While 10,000 BA customers had their travel plans axed and hundreds of flights were cancelled, Tony *Woodley and his wife Janet jetted to Cyprus for a week's break at an exclusive air-conditioned villa with private swimming pool. Mr Woodley, 62, did not fly with BA, ensuring that his trip was not affected by the industrial action..."

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. Cunt.

    Isn't he allowed a holiday then?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Isn't he allowed a holiday then?
    What, in the middle of a strike he's supposed to be orchestrating? Couldn't be a much worse example of leadership if he tried.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    What, in the middle of a strike he's supposed to be orchestrating? Couldn't be a much worse example of leadership if he tried.

    It'd be poor leadership if he hasn't got a senior management team who can temporarily take over when he's not around.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    And isn't this a lovely surprise?

    "The union chief behind the *British Airways dispute flew out for a luxury sunshine holiday *yesterday - as his cabin crew members began a fresh strike, ruining trips for thousands. While 10,000 BA customers had their travel plans axed and hundreds of flights were cancelled, Tony *Woodley and his wife Janet jetted to Cyprus for a week's break at an exclusive air-conditioned villa with private swimming pool. Mr Woodley, 62, did not fly with BA, ensuring that his trip was not affected by the industrial action..."

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. Cunt.
    You made a comment about people in trade unions being boiled alive. I'm sure that means "lazy" people like me too, right?

    People don't go on strike to be lazy. You lose pay, there's a huge fear of being the first on the redundancy list, there's intimidation from management, you can be ostracised by other staff members, all because your management might be breaking the law, bullying, cutting jobs when you barely even have time for a lunch break...

    By the way, the trade unionists I've met have been incredibly brave and hard working. They aren't going on holiday during strikes, but even if they were, it would be a reflection on them and not the other people involved in the union.

    It's all very well to criticise them... But at least they're fighting for what they believe instead of being a doormat. How many of us really stand up and fight for what we believe? I know for sure I could do more...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Try not having lunch breaks and getting paid low wages to be shot at.

    Yeah its not all that good for the BA cabin crew staff, but they still have it a lot better than many other people, even in their own trade.

    What they might not realise is how BA now need to make even more extensive cuts following losing more money due to strike action.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    You made a comment about people in trade unions being boiled alive. I'm sure that means "lazy" people like me too, right?

    People don't go on strike to be lazy. You lose pay, there's a huge fear of being the first on the redundancy list, there's intimidation from management, you can be ostracised by other staff members, all because your management might be breaking the law, bullying, cutting jobs when you barely even have time for a lunch break...

    By the way, the trade unionists I've met have been incredibly brave and hard working. They aren't going on holiday during strikes, but even if they were, it would be a reflection on them and not the other people involved in the union.

    It's all very well to criticise them... But at least they're fighting for what they believe instead of being a doormat. How many of us really stand up and fight for what we believe? I know for sure I could do more...

    Where the hell do you work? It sounds like some third world sweat shop rather than the civil service (because from my experience the management of the civil service aren't going around kneecapping trade union activists). There not brave at all, becuase there is no risk. Now they may be hardworking (though from my experience they're like the rest of the civil service - ie half of them work hard and half don't - at least at the job they are paid to do).

    Unions are an important part of a working capitalist economy, but let's not pretend that in the UK at least they are some sort of heroic figures risking life and limb as they battle evil management
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    You made a comment about people in trade unions being boiled alive. I'm sure that means "lazy" people like me too, right?
    If you want to be included in my definition of lazy, I'm not gonna stop you. I have better things to do.
    People don't go on strike to be lazy. You lose pay, there's a huge fear of being the first on the redundancy list, there's intimidation from management, you can be ostracised by other staff members, all because your management might be breaking the law, bullying, cutting jobs when you barely even have time for a lunch break...
    Erm... let's see now. BA are losing over a million pounds a day at the moment. Are you honestly attempting to argue that this state of affairs is okay?

    Something slightly cheesy I heard today - I was in ASDA doing my shopping and on the in-store radio station, the DJ (very Tony Blackburn-esque he was, by the sounds of it) was talking about this. He joked that the union were planning to organise a much longer strike for BA's workers - it would be called the "being on the dole" strike. Laughing? I ain't.
    It's all very well to criticise them... But at least they're fighting for what they believe instead of being a doormat. How many of us really stand up and fight for what we believe? I know for sure I could do more...
    I'm no doormat. If I think someone's a cunt, I tell them that I think they're a cunt. If I like them, I tell them that I like them. I'm willing to negotiate fairly if another person is. That's how trade unions should approach negotiations - not with the phenomenal arrogance that they currently do.

    I also notice, on a slightly different note, that union dinosaurs are threatening to cause a shit-storm over at BT as well, despite the fact that I'm aware BT have made an incredibly generous pay offer to their staff. It was turned down by the union with no reason given. Draw your own conclusions.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sometimes people get too greedy for their own good.

    Id personally prefer a pay freeze over the risk of my job going bust.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ...let's not pretend that in the UK at least they are some sort of heroic figures risking life and limb as they battle evil management
    It rather suits Namaste's agenda to do that, doesn't it?

    Because, of course, every single job in the public sector is absolutely necessary and essential to the well-being and running of the country. Allegedly.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Where the hell do you work? It sounds like some third world sweat shop rather than the civil service (because from my experience the management of the civil service aren't going around kneecapping trade union activists). There not brave at all, becuase there is no risk. Now they may be hardworking (though from my experience they're like the rest of the civil service - ie half of them work hard and half don't - at least at the job they are paid to do).

    Unions are an important part of a working capitalist economy, but let's not pretend that in the UK at least they are some sort of heroic figures risking life and limb as they battle evil management
    I'm not saying which department I work for. I'm also not saying all management are 'evil'... I'm looking at it from the experience of somebody who has been involved with the union.

    I didn't say that management go around kneecapping either. :)

    I have no issue with unions, they differ politically (obviously), but at the end of the day they stick up for their rights, which I admire. They aren't on strike to be "lazy". I highlighted the issues with going on strike. I do think some of them are brave... A lot braver than people who sit around complaining and not doing anything.

    It's not all black and white... I don't always agree with everything all unions do, but I don't take a Daily Mail attitude either.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Something slightly cheesy I heard today - I was in ASDA doing my shopping and on the in-store radio station, the DJ (very Tony Blackburn-esque he was, by the sounds of it) was talking about this. He joked that the union were planning to organise a much longer strike for BA's workers - it would be called the "being on the dole" strike. Laughing? I ain't. I'm no doormat. If I think someone's a cunt, I tell them that I think they're a cunt. If I like them, I tell them that I like them. I'm willing to negotiate fairly if another person is. That's how trade unions should approach negotiations - not with the phenomenal arrogance that they currently do.
    What union have you been involved with personally? I mean meetings you have sat in on, for example...

    And it's your right to call people a "cunt".
    I also notice, on a slightly different note, that union dinosaurs are threatening to cause a shit-storm over at BT as well, despite the fact that I'm aware BT have made an incredibly generous pay offer to their staff. It was turned down by the union with no reason given. Draw your own conclusions.
    Just as it's their right to form a union. ;)
    It rather suits Namaste's agenda to do that, doesn't it?
    What agenda?

    I have already said my piece, I don't really wish to spiral in to the angry arm chair politics so I'll leave here.

    I'm just saying that I respect trade unionists, with their rights and think some of them brave. I know some people who have been treated badly (illegally) and who unions have suported. But then I have seen a union work first hand. Maybe other people have less positive different first hand experience.

    I will always support people's right to freedom of speech and assembly, even if I disagree with the message. :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    What union have you been involved with personally? I mean meetings you have sat in on, for example...
    None. Not sure how this comes into it personally, though.
    It's your right to call people a "cunt".
    This has got to go into the signature.

    epic-win.jpg

    Moving on...
    Just as it's their right to form a union. ;)
    Much like my right to slag off the union endlessly, and your right to worship them.

    I'm just saying that I respect trade unionists, with their rights and think some of them brave. I know some people who have been treated badly (illegally) and who unions have suported. But then I have seen a union work first hand. Maybe other people have less positive different first hand experience.
    Alright, let's get this on record here. If someone has been treated badly at work or if they have been treated in a way which breaks the law, I think unions certainly would have a role to play for many in this regard. I'd just prefer it if unions spent their time dealing with issues like this, and less time causing trouble for loss-making companies who are struggling to stay afloat.

    But then again, there's no chance of Tony Woodley or Derek Simpson losing their jobs if BA go bankrupt, is there?

    Oh and Tony, if you or one of your apparachiks is reading this, how's the holiday going? Nice and sunny over in Cyprus, is it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Im not allowed to join a union, its against the law. So think of that when you get all your perks from collective bargaining :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    I'm not saying which department I work for. I'm also not saying all management are 'evil'... I'm looking at it from the experience of somebody who has been involved with the union.

    I didn't say that management go around kneecapping either. :)

    I have no issue with unions, they differ politically (obviously), but at the end of the day they stick up for their rights, which I admire. They aren't on strike to be "lazy". I highlighted the issues with going on strike. I do think some of them are brave... A lot braver than people who sit around complaining and not doing anything.

    It's not all black and white... I don't always agree with everything all unions do, but I don't take a Daily Mail attitude either.

    You and I have very different definitions of bravery - to me bravery is doing something that involves some risk - there's none of that. In fact they sometimes show the opposite of bravery - in that by refusing to accpet difficult decisions they are trying to retreat into their own comfort zones.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G wrote: »
    Im not allowed to join a union, it's against the law.
    One of several reasons why military people get paid a pittance. That, and the fact politicians love grand-standing on the world stage, but aren't prepared to pay properly for the mechanisms required to do that.

    I say we pay MPs £10k a year. We'll see pay rises for the military within weeks.
Sign In or Register to comment.