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OUTRAGED about Baby P's murderers

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
Everyone has been talking about this but I needed to express my complete discuss at the CPS for the such lenient sentencing of these murderers. 10 years for one of them - 10 years, and that babys life is over because of these scumbags.

And, as if things couldn't get worse, the mums boyfriend IS APPEALING against his sentence... it makes me sick.

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Get with the times man this is old news. It's terrible but 10 years is quite a long time still. The fact the guy is appealing is pretty bad but its not suprising, pretty much everyone seems to appeal so let the scumbag try. hopefully the judge will see sence and not only throw out his appeal but add extra time onto his sentance...Not that i would imagine it will make any difference anyway, street justice will be dished out inside no doubt :thumb:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Who gives a flying fuck?
  • **helen****helen** Mod malarkist Deactivated Posts: 9,235 Listening Ear
    Kermit wrote: »
    Who gives a flying fuck?

    Ouch, that hurts - old habits die hard, eh?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To be fair, skipping past Kermit's response, it is pretty relevant right now. The sentence has just been passed up for review to examine whether it was too small - and I'd imagine a decision isn't that long away.

    And, as a wider point, I don't think it's ever wrong to consider whether the systematic abuse of a baby deserves 3 years in jail, or the rape of a 2 year old 10 years.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I guess part of the problem is we give something like 14 years for Murder I believe (or around that) and so you have to 'give them something' as they are not quite as bad as if they had deliberately murdered the child. Since they couldn't prove certain elements in court (I'm not up to date on which elements) it would be an injustice to give them the same sentence as someone who had been found guilty of murder.

    E.g. I steal some sweets from a shop and the police catch me, but can't prove I took them (only that I had them) so I only get possession of stolen goods, and as such should be charged less severely than someone with both possesion of stolen goods and theft proven.

    That's how the courts work, no?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I suppose I'm rather tired of the illiterate ranting about how these people should be hung, drawn and quartered. It was usually the same retards that ranted about how Venables and Thompson should have been tortured too.

    It's strange how people ranting about the cruelty to Baby Peter don't have the same anger about children in Africa suffering the EXACT SAME TREATMENT. But they're poor, and not cute, and not blonde, and not blue-eyed, so they don't count.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think it's more that kids in Africa are futher away. It's not that they don't count, it's that we have systems in place in Britain to prevent things like this and we can't force a similar system on the rest of the world.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    It's strange how people ranting about the cruelty to Baby Peter don't have the same anger about children in Africa suffering the EXACT SAME TREATMENT. But they're poor, and not cute, and not blonde, and not blue-eyed, so they don't count.

    Count me out on this one. I care a great deal about ALL Children and YP, no matter were they are from etc. I do alot of outreach work with YP and I also volunteer for a number of big organisations to help children in different situations. So I do have the same hurt and the same thought about the people who are getting treated like this in Africa - Im just saying our prison sentencing is just so messed up.

    I know this is a quite a controversial subject and sorry if its offending anyone!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think it's more that kids in Africa are futher away. It's not that they don't count, it's that we have systems in place in Britain to prevent things like this and we can't force a similar system on the rest of the world.

    Exactly.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not to mention that we've evidently failed in our country.

    I don't disagree that people ranting for hanging are wrong, but there is still a serious issue about how our safeguarding and legal system has worked in this case and whether it's working right now for others..

    Just to point out I'm as horrified by what happened to Khyra Ishaq, Tiffany Wright, or any other child. I don't know the names of the children who died from abuse in other countries, or all those who died in this country - but I'm certain that I want us to do everything we can to reduce the chances of similar cases occuring again.

    And it isn't anger I feel, it's despair.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yeah Im just scared incase things dont change and children like this are overlooked again - it cant happen again. The government pump millions and millions of pounds into all the Social Services around the uk, and into organisations and procedures to safeguard children and YP - but the measures obvieuosly arent working. They are in some places. Lets not forget thousands of children ARE protected by the system... but thousands aren't. :(
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't think things will change. The system favours parents rather than children and I think social services would rather a child dies than be taken away from parents without it being essential.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think social services would rather a child dies than be taken away from parents

    Not a dig at you, but we both know that's nonsense ;).

    I think Kermit has a great point in that we often play the 'hear no evil, see no evil' role - until it gets brought up in national media then we play the horrifically outraged role. It's almost hypocritical to be 'well, it doesn't affect ME' one minute and the next to be almost militant. Of course, that's an exaggeration though.

    I think on the whole our social services are great. We have a massive public infrastructure that is integrated in lots of ways - so the police, doctors, etc. will alert to the child protection officers any things they feel that concern them. Whilstblowers are an important part of it too and speaking from personal experience we have reported neighbours of ours who we were almost certain were assaulting their kids (they were a bit older, 14 and 15, and weren't well behaved - but they didn't deserve to get beat up).

    So this whole system works together and hopefully it stops the worst and most obvious abuses happening. Sometimes however, the system fails, and that's inevitable. That why there are standards agencies monitoring public services to see where they are failing - I would not like to be a doctor or a policeman to know that there are people's whose job it is is to wait for your to make a mistake.

    I think there's definitely a long way to go, in an ideal world there would be no Baby P's but I don't think in our lifetimes we will see child abuse eliminated. It is part of the uglier part of the human condition - it's been around as long as human's have. The Caesar's in Rome used to sexually abuse children, back then it wasn't even questioned.

    So what a way we've come, and compared to many countries we are still something to look up to. There is a long way to go, but the emphasis must be on reducing the amount of child abuse whether that's by taking children in danger out of that danger, or by educating the family to prevent a situation of abuse arising - rather than eliminating child abuse which is a false goal because in my belief is impossible in the next 100 years at least.

    I think it's right that we hold our services to account and especially when there is clear evidence they have royally screwed up - as that's the way they get better. I think it's wrong however to say that this case is endemic across the system as there are many people who put their life's blood into protecting children - it's not an easy job.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't think things will change. The system favours parents rather than children and I think social services would rather a child dies than be taken away from parents without it being essential.

    This is the kind of ill-informed illiterate bollocks that makes my piss boil.

    Social workers in this country do a very good job when you consider the budgetary and caseload constraints they have. After the 'naming and shaming' in Haringay experienced social workers have left the industry in their droves. A huge number of social work positions go unfilled in London every month because people don't want to work in that climate of fear.

    Social workers do their very best for the children but they're attacked on all sides. If they take a child into care based on predictions, as happened in Hexham to a young woman with a history of mental health difficulties, they're slaughtered in the papers. And then when they don't, and something goes wrong, they're slaughtered in the papers.

    The number of care applications has shot up because of the media vitriol against Haringay. It's happening because social workers are scared of it happening again. That means children are being torn away from their families for no need, except to protect social workers from having their names, photos and addresses being printed in the papers.

    And who is responsible for this mess, naturegoddess? YOU ARE. You and your moronic mates who rail against social services without having a fucking clue about how hard the job is.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Okay - there's lots of reason why that comment seems pretty ill-informed but as angry as it may make people it doesn't justify throwing out insults - please remember that this is a chance to change not solidify opinion
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    This is the kind of ill-informed illiterate bollocks that makes my piss boil.

    Social workers in this country do a very good job when you consider the budgetary and caseload constraints they have. After the 'naming and shaming' in Haringay experienced social workers have left the industry in their droves. A huge number of social work positions go unfilled in London every month because people don't want to work in that climate of fear.

    Social workers do their very best for the children but they're attacked on all sides. If they take a child into care based on predictions, as happened in Hexham to a young woman with a history of mental health difficulties, they're slaughtered in the papers. And then when they don't, and something goes wrong, they're slaughtered in the papers.

    The number of care applications has shot up because of the media vitriol against Haringay. It's happening because social workers are scared of it happening again. That means children are being torn away from their families for no need, except to protect social workers from having their names, photos and addresses being printed in the papers.

    And who is responsible for this mess, naturegoddess? YOU ARE. You and your moronic mates who rail against social services without having a fucking clue about how hard the job is.

    My family have had too much contact with social services for me to believe that. I'm sure many are trying, and I know the mangers aren't helping, but the fact is they will aviod taking the child away at almost all costs. I know someone who was left to be abused for years even though social services had been involved on multiple occasions and we'd been keep records of the abuse and photos of the bruises and reporting them for years. I accept that the social workers themselves might not have been responsible, I know how messed up the system they work in is. It's all about keeping costs down, just like everything else is.
    By they way, I also know people who were taken from their aunt just after their mum died, even though their aunt was capable of looking after them. She got them back eventually and, as horrific as it was, it's better than allowing babies to be tortured to death.
    I'm not suggesting social services don't care if children die, I'm saying they have so much to think about like costs, targets and all this "families should stay together" stuff that can sometimes seem more significant than the child.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just reading this made me think of the venerable words of the man right above my posts:

    "That's what I hate about this child-worship syndrome going on. "Save the children! They're killing children! How many children were at Waco? They're killing children!" What does that mean? They reach a certain age and they're off your fucking love-list? Fuck your children, if that's the way you think then fuck you too. You either love all people of all ages or you shut the fuck up."
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Some sentences for murder (and especially rape) do seem too small, but that is because virtually all the time they are reported it is given as the time at which they can first apply for parol.

    Do you really think unless the parol board think they are totally changed and present no risk to the public that they are going to let baby P's parents out at the first chance? Hell the justice department have stopped the parol of ronnie biggs even though he's about 90 and has had several strokes just because he hasnt said sorry.

    As for social services - if we funded them properly and allowed them to work more with families rather than just have an enforcement role it might help. But in reality the real cause is our fundamentally fucked up society with the wrong values.
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