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Foiled "dirty-bomb" attack
BillieTheBot
Posts: 8,721 Bot
I'm sure most of you have heard, but the US intelligence agencies actually managed to pull their fingers out their arses and foiled an attempted terrorist attack in California.
The terrorist, Abdullah al Mujahir was planning to build a device.
More here:
US intelligence foils attack
The terrorist, Abdullah al Mujahir was planning to build a device.
More here:
US intelligence foils attack
Beep boop. I'm a bot.
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Comments
Very bad if it really was attempted though!
Notice how we've been informed, as fact, that he was planning to build one. He hadn't built one, nor procured materials to, as far as we know.
Intention cannot be established without trial in a court of law, which hasn't yet been held. At the moment, surely he's merely suspected of planning an attack?
At the most cynical, he's totally innocent and been picked on by the CIA and FBI because they're under attack for failing to predict and capture terrorists. I for one don't trust the Americans as far as I could throw them.
I was quite astounded when I reread the article, how exactly do you go about proving someone's intent in a court of law....?
Murder requires proof of intent to kill; this cannot be proven totally, which is where "beyond reasonable doubt" comes in.
At the moment, with what little information that has been presented to me, I can't say I'm terribly convinced...
Short term? It would take months at the least to clean up all the radiation...Imagine if that went off in the financial district of DC or some other big city...Financial costs of that would be astronomical.
You complain about the "pathetic incompetence" of the FBI, NSA, CIA, etc., and their inability to circumvent the WTC attack...
Then you call fraud because someone was prevented from carrying out his terrorist plans.
Or is it just that you seek the excuse to damn the US, regardless of WHATEVER is done?
btw... I do not know where you get your information, but a "dirty nuke" can easily be of sufficient size and potency to kill tens of thousands, and render the city uninhabitable for decades. Also, whatever would be left would require destruction for decontamination purposes. We are not talking about a little fire-cracker here.
Back to topic...
If you insist on damning the US regardless of what action is taken or not taken, then it really DOESN'T matter what we choose, and therefore would have no interest in whatever opinion you might present, because there is nothing you could suggest that would be constructive, only self-destructive...
Collectively, you care not about what is happening, only the opportunity to play the nay-sayer role.
You place "pathetic" in quotation, but I cannot see where anyone else in the thread has described it using that word. Please limit yourself to quoting things that people have actually said.
That's not the case. It's simply highly convenient in its timing, with the standard intelligence service lack of evidence. But then you can't be expected to question it; these are American government agents who have said he's a terrorist. It's not possible for you to not believe them. And you call us sheep...
In your post you imply that the US might actually listen to someone elses opinion. Is this a joke?
And, for the record, if it looks like fraud, I'll damn it. This doesn't work along the lines of "well, we let you criticise us last time, so it's your turn not to criticise us this time". Grow up. :rolleyes:
Hey, if this guy had been found in his basement with a stockpile of conventional explosives, radioactive 'slurry,' detonators, plans and diagrams, this that and the other -- then I'd be quite happy to applaud the US agencies and have only relatvely minor reservations about a possible set-up.
As it is, there is nothing in that article to indicate that the agencies actually have physical evidence, only various 'sources.' In the absence of further information, I rate this as less reliable evidence than a half-completed bomb in a basement. On the basis of the evidence in front of me I have to be at least a little sceptical. There may be better evidence that I have not yet seen -- but until I have seen it, I can't make any judgement based on it, can I?
I don't think any of us is playing 'nay-sayer' here -- at least, I'm not. I rather think we're embodying the healthy level of distrust that one ought to when dealing with such things. (I thought a healthy distrust of government was an American principle, too?
The explosive force from a dirty bomb is negligible. Enough to destroy a car, depending on the size, but not much more. You have to remember that the explosive will consist of TNT or Semtex or something similar, and to do any real damage would have to be the size of a small car.
As for the radiation, the radiation from a dirty bomb will only be spread as far as the fragments of the radioactive material, no more than a block or two. The small thing to remember is that buildings will shield the majority of a city from the radiation, which is likely to consist mainly of Beta radiation, and not the more dangerous gamma.
As for the "tens of thousands", the REAL nukes at Hiroshima and Nagasaki only killed 70,000 (approx) a piece, and they will be thousands of times more powerful than any dirty bomb the terrorists can make.
A diry bomb is made to strike fear, and not cause destruction
http://www.terrorismanswers.com/weapons/dirtybomb.html
Not so. The blast is likely to smash the radioactive material into a dust, if it is not a dust already. This is easily spread by winds over a large area.
Also, there is no reason to believe that the nuclear substance used would be a beta source as opposed to a gamma source; both are fairly easy to obtain. As an airborne dust, however, it does not particularly matter, as breathing in the dust exposes it to extremely weak tissues in the lung, which beta and alpha particles can penetrate easily, causing massive potential damage.
Rain can dissolve part of the radioactive compound, giving radioactive groundwater which again, if entering the water supply, can cause massive damage when ingested into the stomach.
In the short term, the number of deaths will be low, limited to those caught in the actual blast or those receiving immediately fatal doses of radiation. However, the long term implications can be severe, even if a massive clean-up is undertaken. The land may become uninhabitable if the ground-water is poisoned and exposure to lower doses of radiation from travelling dust in areas further from the blast site will increase the risk of cancers etc.
The terror factor is certainly a great one, and is perhaps why this weapon is apparently being favoured by the terrorists.
And Atta and company had only taken lessons as to flying commercial aircraft, right?
Interesting hypocracy, coming from a nation that deems the common man unworthy of even possessing a defensive firearm...
Intel I have is that the explosion in the planning was to be larger than Oklahoma City, and that one took out a bit more than just a car...
Tell you what... how about a visual demonstration, say... allow me to use London as the site. However, I'm going to be a thousand miles away when my little "fire-cracker" goes off.
Let's see what you think then...
AND:
His 'handler' gave him up; so, what we now have is an "unlawful combatant" who is in a US military brig awaiting debriefing...and where he will remain until the end of hostilities which could be a very long time...depending upon whether US or israel nukes Meca & Medina in order to totally destabilize the islamic world (a very real possibility).
The gang banger boy has a really big problem...hid bud gave him up, named him and his associates...and defined their mission with enough information for US to act.
And had the 'ol thing' acomplished his mission...there would be killing in the streets of US from one end of the country until every trace of islam were gone...sad but true, the US gets real mean spirited by the likes of such things.
:eek:
hmmmmm....
Diesel fuel and fertilizer was enough to make a bomb that destroyed the Murray building in Oklahoma City. The same amount of TNT, Semtex, C4 or just plain old dynamite would have increased the explosive force by 2 times or more.
If someone is going to go to the trouble to acquire radioactive material, I think they just might go to the trouble of using a significant enough amount of explosive to make it effective. With certain design considerations (no, I'm not going to point them out.), the ability of a fairly small bomb or series of bombs to spread radioactive material over a wide-spread area is not difficult.
In a nuclear holocaust, the majority of people die from radiation sickness and cancer.
A nuclear bomb, would not usually be the only one to land on a city or nation. A dirty bomb would be a one off event. Because of this, much of a city's infrastructure would remain unaffected, and the emergency services would be effective in containing it. Because of this, casulties would be relatively small. I say relatively, because in a nuclear war the destruction would be total and absolute.
In the case of a dirty bomb, deaths from radiation sickness are not as much of a problem as injuries can be dealt with quickly by a hospital.
Well, that $10k -- your source for that, btw? -- would count as material evidence in my book, yes.
Why? What possible purpose would it serve to do that? What provocation?
Instead of comparing it to a nuclear device, compare it to a conventional carbomb.
Different perspective, isn't it?
Also remember that one of the objectives of terrorists is to create terror.
Tell ya what...
Let's go back to my suggestion: I'll build one, set it off in London, and close down London for the next couple of years...
Think your life would remain "unaffected"...?
Special message for whowhere
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Thanatos, I had more respect for you than to think that you will swallow everything your Govt tells you. Have you ever considered that they may lie to you just to affact public opinion?
If this man was building a bomb then I congratulate the intelligence services. Prompt intervention preventing a disaster, you cannot ask more of them.
However, coming as this does at a timewhen they are being criticised, it would be foolish of us not to consider the possibility that this has been faked. What better way to redeem themselves?
At present there is zero physical evidence and this man will be detained without trial until the US Govt sees fit. This makes sure that no "evidence" will ever have to see the light of day. Convenient huh?
Yes we are cynical, but I reather be a cynic that be blinded by patroitism.
Someone once said that the way to get the US public "on-side" is firstly to invoke God - as in ending a speech with "and God Bless America" (cue whooping) - and then start the "U-S-A" chant... Putty in your hands.
You your sense of humor, as well.
A bit more subtle than the abuse I have taken within this forum, you must admit.
If you believe that I swallow "everything" that comes out of the US government - OR the media, for that matter - then you have no concept of who I am. However, having been within a war zone, and actively engaged, I have personally taken another's life for comparable cause, and lest you forget, the US is engaged in a shooting war, and has taken an assault upon our shores.
How would your position change if it were an IRA operative, acting in London? Delicious twist, don't you think?
Exactly how much "physical evidence" was there concerning Atta and crew before they parked the airplanes in a no parking zone?
Rather comparable, wouldn't you say?
Again, rather entertaining perspective from someone who PERSONALLY believes that all should be denied possession of firearms because they might be used in the commission of a crime. Would you prefer that the US had waited until Washington DC had been rendered uninhabitable? Until our capitol had been shut down for years? Although the most of you are in complete ignorance as to the capibilities of pyrotechnics, many of us are most definitely NOT (due to experience within our MOS, training, or personal experience). Allow me a motorhome sized vehicle? No one would set foot in Washington DC again...
Cynicism is not the word which comes to mind... hypocracy is closer.
I have yet to read you question anything your Govt has said or done - unless it was Clinton related. Speak as I see.
Not sure how your history is relevant here.
The man is a US citizen surely this makes his actions treason and therefore a criminal act.
I would advise you to read the history of that conflict. The IRA were treated as criminals and had rights. Sometimes the bastards got away with murder [literally], and this stuck in many people's throats, but you cannot claim to be a just society of you do not act in a just manner.
Not at all. Atta comitted a crime, this man is suspected of being involved in a plot to commit a crime. Had Atta's house been searched before 11/9 US Police forces would have found plenty oof evidence. Hell, they certainly found enough atferwards.
Denied permission to hold a deadly weapon. Not imprisoned for wanting to own one.
Read what I wrote. You seem to have made many assumptions based on the fact that I said I thought it suspect that this happened at a time when the interlligence services are under attack.
I would rather that the US acted swiftly and produced some hard evidence to support their allegations. It is easy to make allegations if you deny someone the right of reply..
How is it hipocrisy? We do not trust your Govt or ours...
It isn't us who level the accusation that we are sheep...you are the one who appears to have swallowed this press release hook line and sinker. We just have a level of skepticism.
How about,you learn to read? Then, after that you learn to debate with some intelligence?
I never recall saying life would be unaffected you dipshit, what I did say was that what you wrote was a load of rubbish, which it is. "tens of thousands would die" I remember you typing. What tosh. You stick to what you know, mainly how you can kill people, and I'll stick to what i know, which is a lot more relevant to this topic, and also a lot more accurate than the stuff you've been coming up with so far.
Failing that, I think the playschool near my house is looking for new students, maybe you should apply there instead of posting stupid links like that one.
Awww... is the wil' lambchop's feewengs all hurt?
Fair enough... I'll stick to what I know, "killing people", which includes pyrotechnics, courtesy of my Uncle, and some OJT.
You stick to what you know... how to get girls pregnant, then running from accountability and responsibility because they are inconvenient concepts, whining because you cannot strong arm them into abortions.
I am so impressed with your "maturity"...
Hey now, calm down. Although Whowhere's post went below the belt a bit there was no need for that. You don't know each other so don't make judgements or pretend to understand each other's situations.
I've gone through the whole thread and it's amzing how the level sunk to this degree. What Whowhere was saying is that some of the things you brought up weren't relevant to what was being talked about Thanatos, and he's been talking from what he's read. Please stop all this insult trading, its not the point.
Anyway, referring back to the actual point of this thread, I see the need for being cynical as its all a bit too 'easy' for my liking also. Its not like they've never tried something like this before, and it's all about restoring the Americans faith in the security of the country they are all so patriotic about and, as such results in boosting morale. It can be said that the Americans are seen as 'cocky' and the events which kicked all this off (sept 11th) took them down a peg or two.
However, the gvt appear to want to restore this state and reassure the people that America is still the most powerful country in the world bla bla and out comes the old red white and blue again. Toss them a bone and they'll bark so to speak.
What I'm getting at here is that when things go bad, America like to find a scapegoat to make them appear kings of the proverbial hill still and in this instance it's this dirty bomb guy, guilty or not it doesn't seem to matter, as 'once again the SS saves the day and all is right with the world' :rolleyes:
I'm just waiting for what happens next
As stated previously, even his handler gave him up (so much for "honor"; no place for it within their "jihad", I guess
Patriotism? Yeah, I'll make NO excuse for that. Defines me, it does. Not viewed as a quality to be ashamed of.
Believe the politicians and media? Not likely. Much more that I disagree with than I agree with. Follow blindly? ROTFLMFAO! Diesel knows me in real life; ask him what a lemming I be. :rolleyes:However, I am neither an anarchist, nor a nihilist.
Asked myself: If I were the publicist/propogandist for the gubberment, would I want to stampede the sheep by parading a visual reality check that terrorism is still alive and functioning? Capable of bring the whole fucking house of cards down? Not bloody likely! I would keep it quiet, rather than manufacture a scare. Difficult to stand upright in a torrent of sheep shit. :eek: The economy over here (which is based upon the illusions of perception, afterall) has taken a hard enough hit: it doesn't need another panic attack.
Never claimed to be a politician, nor a statesman. I am a Warrior, and I prefer that calling. Much simpler, thank you...