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Live oop North?
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Don't vote Conservative then. Is this their subtle way of telling us that they'll abandon any plans to invest in the North as soon as they're elected? 
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David Cameron's in my town today answering questions incidentally. That's gotta be uncomfortable.
Anyway, I do agree with some of the points of the report tbh. The idea that regenerating an area and making it look pretty will attract new business to an area is ridiculous. There are no jobs for the skills that people in the North had. Industry was destroyed rather than modernised to compete with Japan and Germany. Now anyone with skills leaves the North. So is the North a lost cause, or what can be done to turn it around?
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David Cameron has been embarrassed by his favourite think-tank after it suggested that Liverpool, Sunderland and Bolton should be abandoned because the North would never improve.
The report concludes: “No one is suggesting that residents should be forced to move, but we do argue that they should be told the reality of the position: regeneration, in the sense of convergence, will not happen, because it is not possible.”
David Cameron's in my town today answering questions incidentally. That's gotta be uncomfortable.
Anyway, I do agree with some of the points of the report tbh. The idea that regenerating an area and making it look pretty will attract new business to an area is ridiculous. There are no jobs for the skills that people in the North had. Industry was destroyed rather than modernised to compete with Japan and Germany. Now anyone with skills leaves the North. So is the North a lost cause, or what can be done to turn it around?
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Which would be funded with...?
Tax cuts don't need to be 'funded'.
Massive cuts in business taxes would mean you get alot less pence per pound but you'd have alot more pounds to take those pence from. With cheap land and low taxes the north would be a attractive place for businesses to invest. Lower income taxes would leave people with alot more money to put back into the local economy.
Some of these ideas are simply plain bonkers. One, it's suggested that they increase the size of London by "by allowing landowners the right to convert industrial land into residential land in areas of above average employment". Erm, newsflash - London already has over 7million people living in it, does it really need more? As for expanding Oxford and Cambridge, don't make me laugh. I can detect an overwhelming scent of snobbery from this report.
But that doesn't neccessarily mean more business - often that it just relocates from other parts of the UK, which doesn't actually solve the problem (though low business rates across the country may be good, Ireland as an example)
Not necessarily no, but it certainly gives businesses an incentive for investing in the north. Right now there isn't much incentive for them to do so. I doubt there would be much if any relocation either; it costs alot of money to relocate a business but when a business is given the choice of opening a factory somewhere with low employment and low tax as opposed to a high tax area with high employment the choice is obvious. There needs to be some sort of disparity to force a choice, countrywide tax cuts would just further the divide.
Exactly.
That is different, that was an entire country, not just differing regions.
The underlying principles are still sound. Can you explain how applying them to differing regions would not have the same effect?
Because I believe just enticing established businesses to shift from one area of the country to another isn't just as simple as it sounds. If one area of the country is fine, with a happy workforce, why would business shift?
Currently there is little incentive to invest anywhere, with things as they stand.
I'm not saying they're excellent or the best in the world. I'm saying they are many, many times better than those in a typical country that believes in very low taxes.
As it happens the NHS provides, generally speaking, excellent service and far better than that available to most nations on earth. There is plenty of room for improvement of course, but far more room for a big deterioration of service, which would come to be if there was to be a significant cut in taxes.
But whilst it might improve wealth in the North it would reduce it in the South as business relocate(or stealing from Peter to pay Paul).
You're kind of proving my point for me here, you say if one area of the country is fine with a happy workforce why would businesses shift? The answer is they wouldn't unless there was some sort of economic incentive for them to do so; such as the tax cuts I've just suggested.
The south has other incentives though and I wouldn't think entire companies would close up shop in the south and move all their operations north; more that they would expand up north.
I agree it wouldn't work as a permanent solution, but in the short term to encourage investment I think it's the best choice and I can't think of any other solution other than letting the north just get worse.
Maybe the tax system could be entirely regional and dynamic across the country adjusting every year, but I have no idea if thats a viable solution or not.
From the bits i've seen of the report its actually an intelligent attempt to deal with the problems. It's a shame the Tories have knocked it down, because some of the suggestions actually would make a difference.
Go for a walk up north and you can stop and chat with anyone, you can have a friendly talk with nearly anyone, the average londoner wants you to know what hes earning, call that a stereotype but every Londoner ive met bar two have been like that, what money i have, what property, where i work and i would not want that for all the tea in Ireland.
I live up north and i'm damn proud of it and no toffee nosed money grabbing snobbish bunch of hooray henry wankers is allowed to tell me my part of the country is worthless because they cannot make money out of it.
Sorry for ranting but this kind of thing really gets on my pine kernal ^.^
Oh shut up.
I'm from Bradford and no way on earth can you just stop and chat with anyone - you're just as likely to get a kicking or being ignored there as you are here in London, where I now live, and I much prefer it. Nobody asks me how much I earn or if I have property. You obviously met a couple of bad eggs.
Perhaps in the smaller village-type areas, yes, people are friendlier, but in the centre? No chance. Almost anywhere I have lived in London, if I've been walking past people, many will respond to a nod and a smile, even a hello *shock horror* just the same as anywhere else. A lot of the "OMG, London is SOOO unfriendly" thing is rubbish. Rush hour on public transport, then no, it's not going to be pretty - but that is the same in any major City.
Nowhere is perfect, not even in the North.
You don't expand for tax breaks - you expand because you've got more customers. So it would likely not be businesses expanding, but relocating. Certainly thats the experience when last done - when we had reduced business rates in the North there was some new business from overseas (not much), but most of it was relocation. Funnily enough when the tax breaks ended most of the companies fucked off.
It's also expensive to implement if managed by the Govt and encourages competition when done by LAs (when they should be collaborating). We moved to centralised business rates for exactly that reason.
Then there is the political problems - it penalises poor communties and people in the South (which isn't popular with voters there) and if done by labour it looks like payouts for their constituencies.
Looks like we have had different experiences of North and South, Everyones perfect place is somewhere - mine is here yours is there it seems
Doesn't stop this report being pretty much political suicide for any Tory guy in the north :shocking: Although i don't think Labor will do well at all either - would not be surprised if the BNP and UKIP made a lot of gains this time round... even if their policies are 1. 'kick em out' and 2. 'erm, do stuff with money'.
Aye, unfortunately, after living in London for a few years, even when visiting one of the major Northern cities I don't feel like I am in the middle of anything. I like it up there, but there's just not enough going on for me now. Feels like I've almost slipped down a couple of gears.
I'll be up there at the end of the month visiting family (and escaping the Hell that is the Notting Hill Carnival as I live right on the parade route *shudders*). I'm looking forward to seeing folks around Bradford, Wakefield and up on the East Coast, but I know by the end of the weekend I'll be wanting to get back to 'civilisation'
I know you are joking but that is exactly what's going to happen now. Lots of people who already thought that the north was crap saying "I told you so". I know I shouldn't really care what others say but this whole thing makes me sad.
I love life up north and the opportunities are just fine for me, I am paid well and due to lower house prices than in the South I get to live on my own and pay rent without too much trouble. Next year I'll be buying my own place. There is no way I'd be able to do that if I moved south.
The report made me feel like it was the beginning of the north being abandoned by the government and possible governments to come. With an attitude of "why bother spending money up there, its shit anyway"
I'd still say that Blackburn industry wise has far more capabilities than Preston. There's some majoy companies around Blackburn that get overlooked in general. Things aren't as grim there as people think. But no Blackburn and Burnley are small towns and can't be compared in the same league as the cities that you've mentioned which yes are starting to pull in more professional type skills. But this country can't survive with everyone being professionals and the old industrial towns of the north will survive and are required...just unfortunately those are the lower paid jobs.
There are plenty of companies expanding to the north...google and microsoft will both be opening branches in Manchester in the next few years for example. However, it isn't enough to make the north competitive. I tried really hard to find a job that would allow me to meet my potential and live up north and failed miserably. Still love it when I manage to get back up though, it's a refreshing break from the south.
Been there lately?
Massive regeneration going on in the city.
Huge construction sites huge buildings going up.
But ...i think this country is screwed anyway.
We'll never be able to be a proper part of Europe, meaning our status and influence in the world can only go down.
Only big is going to survive in the near future.
North America ...Asia ...Eurasia.
Russia are powering European production.
Who and what is going to power ours?
Investment in production will be happening in the big places ...which we are refusing to join.
London indeed will survive and possibly thrive for a while.
The rest of the nation is screwed ...we have what to offer the world?
What would you invest time and money in right now in the UK?