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British soldiers accused of sickening sex assault on Iraqi boy, 14
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-soldiers-accused-of-sickening-sex-assault-on-iraqi-boy-14-866482.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/phil-shiner-the-mod-blames-a-few-bad-apples-i-blame-the-mod-866388.html
No particular question .. just after people's general thoughts?
I think if there is any wrong doing that the soldiers need to be sent down along with those that watched and didn't doing anything to stop it, report it, etc.
Also think they need to be put on the appropriate sex offenders / pedophile register for when they get out of prison.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/phil-shiner-the-mod-blames-a-few-bad-apples-i-blame-the-mod-866388.html
No particular question .. just after people's general thoughts?
I think if there is any wrong doing that the soldiers need to be sent down along with those that watched and didn't doing anything to stop it, report it, etc.
Also think they need to be put on the appropriate sex offenders / pedophile register for when they get out of prison.
0
Comments
Put them on trial if there's evidence to do so. If they did it, put them in prison. If they didn't, let them go.
how you break the code of silence, where other soldiers protect them?
And on the other hand, you dehumanise someone enough to kill another on orders, can you be surprised if they fail in other areas of human rights?
But according to Philip Zimbardo, it's not simply a case of weeding out the bad apples, it's something fundamental in the whole power dynamic of the armed forces (and American prisons too, which is where his most famous research lies).
And if it looks like I'm picking on the US military here, it's just that that's where most of the research has been done.
How is it a war crime? They're peacekeeping forces, and the rape wasn't used as a tactic of war (something that I believe has just become a war crime). I think the most appropriate action would be to say that this is an attack on an Iraqi citizen on Iraqi soil, so let the Iraqi courts deal with it. Let's see how much faith they have in the "democracy" they've brought to Iraq.
he has a point that people involved in war don't act in civilised ways, but he's getting the reasons and the way to stop it the wrong way round. The training soldiers recieve is designed to stop them acting on normal human instincts and instead revert to be disciplined (ie not to murder the person who's just killed your mates, not to slap around an enemy in your power). If you look at the list of atrocites committed in wars most of them tend to be committed by militias or other groups outside the normal chain of military discipline and to a lesser extent by conscript armies, who don't have the same bonds of discipline.
There are always going to be atrocities, because soldiers like all human beings, can be flawed. But in the British Army there is attempts to deal with them.
Even things like bayonet training, often cited as an attempt to increase aggression, are misunderstood. It's role is to train soldiers in controlled aggression and condition them into being able to turn it on and off (harder to do than people think).
I haven't seen the figures since the mid-90's, but I wouldn't think they've changed, but rape investigated by the RMP and then dealt with by court-martial tended to result in around a 30% conviction rate. It's about 5% in civilian courts.
It should also be noted that armies, as a whole, tend to be made up of young men. Most of the comparisons people make are to the population as whole - instead they should be comparing it to the same demographic outside the army (and to be realy accurate young men from the same social background and from the same areas). I suspect that they wouldn't find it much different.
Now, its obvious the US has some problems, but I wouldn't extrapolate from that there is something intrinsic in armies, rather there is something within certain branches of the US armed forces
Nor does it mean that every soldier is a paragon of virtue and we should't investigate and then jail the guilty. However, at the same time I wouldn't read into this story that rape and sexual assault is endemic in the British Army, just that like every organisation it has its bad apples.
(I also don't think companies could act as the military. As a civilian my company can't order me to move forward to clear trenches at the risk of my life. Nor do I live cheek in jowl with other civil servants, in civil service estates, supplied by the civil sevice. Though after being both a civilian and a soldier, i think as a whole it civilian organisations which could do with learning about leadership and management from the army, not the other way round).
Oh, I'm not trying to do that. It was just that the question was about what we're doing to stop it, rather than the individual case, so I guess we need to first find out the causes of rape in the military. It's really hard to get non-American figures though, but I suspect the causes and solutions are the same everywhere, whether the British military is doing a better job of it than the Americans or not. A lot of it might be exactly the same issues that are a problem in wider society (poor reporting rates, etc), but I guess we first need to establish whether there is something of a problem in the military specifically, and a lot of groups seem to think there is (specifically the American military's processes for dealing with rape - an honorable discharge with no criminal record - I hope the British are better than this). Like I said though, I'm gonna read a bit first.
But how does it compare to rapes by football players? (who are both the same age and often from the same social groups). Whilst rape can be done by anyone, my gut feeling is that it is more prevalent by groups with lower educational attainment and from working class backgrounds, ie the same social grouping as where soldiers are mostly recruited from
I didn't think you were. the trouble is that all these discussions tend to eventually focus on the armed forces either being the problem or that they attract rapists and thugs. I've never seen discussion, following a Doctor sexually assaulting a patient, around whether there is something in medical training which makes sexual assault more prevalent.
I'm biased, but I'd say the British Army is doing a better job. I've never heard of anyone being found guilty of rape not being chucked out (after being busted, jail time and loosing pension rights). I'd be suprised if that wasn't the case for the US as well to be honest.
However, in cases where rape isn't proven, I've also heard of people being thrown out (services no longer required or asked to put in a resignation). If during the course of the investigation it becomes obvious you're innocent you're probably OK, but if there is enough to strongly suspect, but not enough to convict you'll be out. I suspect this is what has also happened in US cases.
Generally sexual offences are regarded more seriously than non-sexual. There's plenty of crimes which won't stop you joining the army or even staying on if you are convicted. Normally minor theft or assault. But sexual crimes are regarded as a no-no and will almost certainly result in you being out.
I also suspect that some of the issues that plague civilian rape cases are less so in the military. The short skirt argument will hold less sway in a society which says that you are responsible for your actions, not the fact the victim was showing a bit of leg. There's also much greater supervision of where soldiers, especially young single soldiers live, than with civilians.