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BBC fat cat bosses - justified or sack the lot?

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    I don't think the BBC is 'bad'. But Kermit has a point that it isn't really under tremendous competitive pressure, as long as people watch TV it gets its money. If it was a competitive company, they would fight hard for customers money by producing without a doubt the best telly out there. But it doesn't. Channel 4 does (in my opinion, ITV is just crap, and five is for people who like australian soaps).
    If that were true commercial channels would produce great televsion.

    In fact the opposite is true. The more commercial they are, the harder they fight for audience share, the shittest they tend to be. ITV is a prime example. Sky is an ever bigger one.

    And there is a simple explanation for that: lowest common denominator. Easiest to put car-crash, no-braincells-required programmes such as Jeremy Vile, Jerry Springer or endless repeats of The Simpsons. It will attract large numbers of viewers at the expense of quality programming.

    Channel 4 does produce some good programmes but then it also produces some regrettable shite, and IMO the latter today outweighs the former by a worrying margin. 80% of Channel 5's output is binnable.

    The BBC remains the best broadcaster not only in Britain but on the entire planet. It's no coincidence that TV channels all over the world queue up to buy BBC-produced programmes.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Would you also demand that, say, the proportion of the income tax you pay that goes to Heritage and Culture is calculated and refunded back to you if you didn\'t like museums and the arts?

    He could stop having (taxable) income.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    If that were true commercial channels would produce great televsion.

    In fact the opposite is true. The more commercial they are, the harder they fight for audience share, the shittest they tend to be. ITV is a prime example. Sky is an ever bigger one.

    And there is a simple explanation for that: lowest common denominator. Easiest to put car-crash, no-braincells-required programmes such as Jeremy Vile, Jerry Springer or endless repeats of The Simpsons. It will attract large numbers of viewers at the expense of quality programming.

    Channel 4 does produce some good programmes but then it also produces some regrettable shite, and IMO the latter today outweighs the former by a worrying margin. 80% of Channel 5's output is binnable.

    The BBC remains the best broadcaster not only in Britain but on the entire planet. It's no coincidence that TV channels all over the world queue up to buy BBC-produced programmes.

    Except when you look at US commercial channels and get things like Lost, Battlestar Galactica. even in the UK both 4 and five often do both better documentaries and history than BBC. The BBC used to be a world beater - now its not.

    That said I'm happy with licence, but think it could be used better. BBC 3 and 4 should be closed, as should the local radio output and the web prescence scaled back to the News and Sport
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Except when you look at US commercial channels and get things like Lost, Battlestar Galactica. even in the UK both 4 and five often do both better documentaries and history than BBC. The BBC used to be a world beater - now its not.
    Remember, all those channels are doing is buying the right to broadcase the series. The BBC could get those programmes too. All they have to do is be the highest bidder and beat off the competition.

    And if they did that all the time, the budget would have to be far larger, and people would complain about the licence fee costing even more money than it does now. So again, it's a lose-lose situation as far as its critics are concerned.

    The BBC does get American blockbuster series too- Heroes being the latest example. But there is little it can do other than pay absurd amounts of money when Murdoch's Evil Empire decides it will buy the latest fashionable series for its ultra piss-poor Sky 1 channel, specially since half of the time it's another branch of its empire who produced the series in the first place. The same can be said of many sports.

    What you don't get with most commercial channels is such jewels as Coast, Planet Earth and hundreds of other documentaries, dramas, biographies and historical series- many of them not just shown on the BBC, but created by the corporation itself.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Remember, all those channels are doing is buying the right to broadcase the series. The BBC could get those programmes too. All they have to do is be the highest bidder and beat off the competition.

    And if they did that all the time, the budget would have to be far larger, and people would complain about the licence fee costing even more money than it does now. So again, it's a lose-lose situation as far as its critics are concerned.

    The BBC does get American blockbuster series too- Heroes being the latest example. But there is little it can do other than pay absurd amounts of money when Murdoch's Evil Empire decides it will buy the latest fashionable series for its ultra piss-poor Sky 1 channel, specially since half of the time it's another branch of its empire who produced the series in the first place. The same can be said of many sports.

    What you don't get with most commercial channels is such jewels as Coast, Planet Earth and hundreds of other documentaries, dramas, biographies and historical series- many of them not just shown on the BBC, but created by the corporation itself.

    C4 and five make most of the history and documentaries themselves (and make a tidy sum from selling them). Also the US commercial channels aren't buying from anyone - they are making quality programmes that the BBC and C4 and Five buy (ITV buys some but not much, but Pushing Dasies is about the only US drama in primetime I can remember - ITV is much more home-grown)

    And to be fair even a lot of the BBC's dramas (Rome for example) are also financed by the US (HBO does a lot with the Beeb).

    Now I'd accept that individual programmes would be more expensive, but the BBC should do less and do it better. it could cut lots of digital channels - except News 24 and BBC Parliament (which costs fuck all), cut back on web, stop doing local radio etc. And put the money back into decent progs on BBC1 and 2
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That I would agree with. It should not spread itself too thin or try too many adventures, and concentrate on the established channels.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    What you don't get with most commercial channels is such jewels as Coast, Planet Earth and hundreds of other documentaries, dramas, biographies and historical series- many of them not just shown on the BBC, but created by the corporation itself.

    All of the BBC's latest wildlife documentaries including Planet Earth were joint projects with US commercial broadcaster Discovery. And of course, probably the most famous science documentary series ever made (Cosmos), was made by American commercial TV. The US shows that it simply isn't true that commercial TV = shit TV. They do dramas better than anyone else. They do pretty good comedy and kids shows too. And in terms of shit gameshows and reality TV, if anything, it's the UK that's flooding America with bullshit like Dancing with the Stars and The Weakest Link (both BBC). And of course absolutely none of this compares to films, which are the ultimate commercial project, because they stand and fall on their own merits (whereas a shit show that advertisers like can run for years). And the cinema is without a doubt the place you go for quality. Hell, even the turd is polished at the cinema.

    I think that any public funding of television should be done in a similar way to arts funding tbh. It should be awarded to private companies on a project-by-project basis, ensuring that any project that public money funding is either doing something important to the artform (e.g. bringing new talent through, trying something that would be too much of a commercial risk for broadcasters), or offering a type of programming that people consider important, that the free market is struggling to provide (e.g. kids shows, science and education etc). And then the private companies can do whatever they want with it (presumably sell it to a commercial broadcaster).
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin, I don't know how you can say with a straight face that The Weakest Link or Strictly Come Dancing is a "vital part of the nation's fabric". It's not exactly Lowry, is it?

    Why should tax money be used to prop up a commercial organisation? Tax money should ONLY be used to protect things that would not otherwise be protected- in the case of TV, that means faith and educational programming, local news, and not much else. Tax money- whatever the source- shouldn't be used to prop up commercial ventures and shouldn't be used to distort a commercial marketplace. That includes the Olympics, since you ask.

    But since you love the BBC and all it stands for, I'll ask you one simple question: should someone who refuses to pay the BBC their pound of flesh be sent to prison? You never did quite get around to answering that last time. Yes, or no, should people who don't pay the BBC get sent down? Is The Office worth removing someone's liberty?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes I did answer it the last time very clearly the last time, and I'll do it again. It is wrong.

    I suggest you start writing to your MP so the law is changed then, instead of suggesting a television broadcaster actually has the power to send people to jail and does so.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I wouldn't mind paying the TV licence if it was ok to not pay it and just not watch BBC (just ITV, Ch4 and 5 etc)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh, Aladdin, I have done but will that change anything? No, not really.

    The BBC has the power to send people to prison if they do not pay the TV Tax. That is the reality of the "unique funding" that the BBC has. Don't pay and you go to prison. The BBC enforces the law and the BBC prosecutes the law- they send people to prison.

    Out of interest, Aladdin, what should the penalty be for watching ITV or Sky without paying the BBC's TV Tax first?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    I suggest you start writing to your MP so the law is changed then, instead of suggesting a television broadcaster actually has the power to send people to jail and does so.

    The law can be changed by sending MPs pieces of paper but I think you have the wrong ones there. Furthermore, the BBC will probably have more of them than Kermit so he will never be able to compete.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I can't see the issue. You avoid any tax you will be fined or jailed - that doesn't seem wrong to me. And that's what the TV licence is after-all.

    You could argue that the TV licensing authority should be fully seperate from the BBC, but that's a different argument (and one I wouldn't neccessarily disagree with).
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I can\'t see the issue. You avoid any tax you will be fined or jailed - that doesn\'t seem wrong to me.

    Semantics on my part, perhaps, but I think you mean evade. There is a legal difference between them.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Semantics on my part, perhaps, but I think you mean evade. There is a legal difference between them.

    Mea culpa
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    Oh, Aladdin, I have done but will that change anything? No, not really.

    The BBC has the power to send people to prison if they do not pay the TV Tax. That is the reality of the "unique funding" that the BBC has. Don't pay and you go to prison. The BBC enforces the law and the BBC prosecutes the law- they send people to prison.

    Out of interest, Aladdin, what should the penalty be for watching ITV or Sky without paying the BBC's TV Tax first?
    For someone whose line of work is related to the justice system you appear to have a poor grasp of how it all works.

    The BBC has the same kind of 'power to send you to prison' as the council does for you not paying council tax. Or the corner shop keeper for reporting you to the police and demanding you are prosecuted if you are caught stealing his goods. What kind of country we live in when a shopkeeper can send you to prison, eh? Disgusting if you ask me.

    No matter how much you twist it, you know this particular argument of yours is bollocks- certainly in the form you phrase it. The BBC has as much power to send people to jail as every other body, institution, business or citizen in the country.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Those examples are poorly chosen in order to support your argument through Aladdin.

    You choose to live in a particular area and in exchange for your council tax you receive services such as rubbish collection, street lighting, subsidised transport etc. If you visit a different area, you are not forced to pay council tax there, even though you may benefit from another council's services. With the BBC you are forced to pay for the license even if you only access ITV's services.

    You can also choose not to enter one particular shop and go elsewhere without being penalised. Accessing services without paying for them is wrong, but what if you don't want to access services from one provider, and are quite happy to pay for services from an alternative? Why should you have to pay for the provider you don't want?
    I understand that but it is completely wrong of Kermit to claim, as he has done numerous times, that the BBC "sends people to jail". The BBC does not such thing. Never has, never will, and could not even if it wanted.

    Regarding the point you were making, the BBC is far more than just a service. It's a national instutution and an asset that should be protected. It might seem unfair to some that they are forced to pay for it even if they don't use its services. But the same can be said of those who don't visit museums, who have no time for certain sporting or cultural events, who don't care about architectural heritage, or to object to the existence of the armed forces, and yet have to pay through it all through their taxes.

    That is the price we all pay for living in the society we live in. Believe me, there are various things I don't use or even support myself that I'm having to pay for through my taxes all the same.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That's a different ball game though- forms of government and which one we believe would serve the country are quite on another level from museums and institutions.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes of course they are. In fact there is nothing more important or relevant to a governing system than whether it is a Republic or a Monarchy. It is vitally significant and on another league altogether to museums and institutions.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I was browsing and this thread interested me. I saw this in today's Guardian. It says

    "a PriceWaterhouseCoopers study estimating that the BBC contributes a total of £6.5bn a year to the wider economy, more than double the £3.27bn it made last year from the licence fee."

    Also when it comes to journalistic content I believe BBC is one of the top at radio level. Admittedly when you watch BBC 6 o clock news it can seem a bit dumbed down but when you compare it to what ITV broadcast it is infinitely better. To me ITV seems to be the Tabloid of Broadcast News.

    Mind you i tend to watch Channel 4 news.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Only in your opinion though :)
    Indeed! :)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i think bbc iplayer is pretty good *shrug*
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The Doctor wrote: »
    "a PriceWaterhouseCoopers study estimating that the BBC contributes a total of £6.5bn a year to the wider economy, more than double the £3.27bn it made last year from the licence fee."

    I should hope so. It's a business. It should be making a profit.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This debate has been done numerous times before and is very much like Israel in that absolutely no one changes their mind at all.

    Having said that though I do think that there should be equal pay rises for all in virtually every organisation - if the cleaner is getting 2.5% so should the guy at the top.

    And Radio 4 is still worth the licence fee alone.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The Doctor wrote: »
    I was browsing and this thread interested me. I saw this in today's Guardian. It says

    "a PriceWaterhouseCoopers study estimating that the BBC contributes a total of £6.5bn a year to the wider economy, more than double the £3.27bn it made last year from the licence fee."

    It's small beer compared to the money Hollywood generates for the US with no public subsidy. If you argue on purely economic terms you are actually destroying the argument for it being paid for by the public. If all it delivers is things which are commercially viable I've got to ask - why? The BBC main aim shouldn't be to make money but to act as an independent news organisation and to make programmes which are not commercialy viable (though I recognise it needs to make enough Eastender and My Family to persuade people to fork out cash for it)
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