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Appreciating physical beauty sexually, without interest in personality or talents, is surely sexual objectification?
You're referring to a book by a hypocrite who wears makeup and practices exactly what she preaches against? Maybe on day if you have a daughter, you'll notice the same instinct before you can blame socialisation...
As to the sex industry, I think there are two distinct factors at play - one is the issue around the effect upon wider society, the other is the level of exploitation of an individual.
I think they are often seperate issues. The reality is that there do exist women used as sex slaves in this country and across the world, who are forced into an industry that exploits their bodies and is absolutely a modern slave trade. There's no difference for me between efforts to stop illegal trading in Africans to support cotton plantations and efforts to stop Eastern European women being forced to work in a network of grubby flats in Soho.
Anything that removes liberty from a person and forces them to work is slavery and the slave trade for prostitution is an appalling example.
On the other hand are the issues of how elements of the sex trade affect wider society and the position of women as they are viewed by men. I'm making no judgment here on the arguments around that, but I think the popularity or visibility of a part of the sex trade makes a difference.
I think the exploitation of a slave is terrible and a bad reflection on the individual exploitation in our society - but if page 3 images do exploit and do degrade women than that is likely to have a much greater impact - such that it's worth considering as a separate but sometimes related issue.
The big question here for me is IF. When its not possible to reach a consensus on whether it does or it doesn't, how we can we even begin to measure an impact.
Namaste brought an excellent point into this discussion earlier:
With the Million Women Rise the sex workers from Ipswich wanted it all to be decriminalised, but their rights for free speech was suddenly took away on the day.
One example of feminist inner conflict. Tut
IMO the exploitation of someone who has been denied liberty and forced to work as slave is a far more important that whether a woman chooses of her own free will to be a page 3 model. The problem is we don't hear enough of the opinions of the model on this issue, instead we hear from those who oppose her 'exploitation' and far too often except that argument without question, perhaps for fear of being labelled sexist.
There is a difference between an Eastern European woman tricked in to coming to the UK with promises of waitressing work and women who choose to work in the sex industry.
I think that reforming prostitution laws may help to prevent trafficking for sex.
It would also make it safer for prostitutes who work because at the end of the day, prostitution will always exist
To be frank I think what would make a much bigger difference to those who are would be a blanket statement that all women who can free themselves from that slavery will be guaranteed not to be returned to their country of origin. At the moment the home office won't guarantee that - and given that the people involved in the trade in women are likely to have many contacts in the countries they came from it's hardly a safe option to come forward.
As for general prostitution in the country there's no doubt that a reform in the laws and legalised brothels will make things much safer for prostitutes - but then the laws aren't written to protect women in the sex trade. They are in part written to stop it and criminalise people involved and in part to maintain a perceived moral correctness (and again I'm making no judgment on whether that's correct or not).
You hardly have to look further than Jack the Ripper, Peter Sutcliffe or Steve Wright to see what a poor job the law does of protecting those itself as put in an incredibly vulnerable position.
I'd probably imagine that given the well documented links between street walking and drug addiction that better funded drug services would make a significant difference as well.
You could just ask if you want to know why I don't see it as hypocracy if you wanted to. No need to invent my reasons instead
i'm for the legalisation of prostitution, and i think that these days, you should have every right to do what you want with your body.
and i completely aggree, that its other women, no one else, that pressurises us into feeling like we have to be prim and proper at all times. i do think that these women who are so very like those in the devil wears prada are bordering on evil (if i believed in such a thing) and they need a huge reality check. but don't mens mags do the same?
i was at million woman rise with namaste, and yes it was amazingly empowering, but i think that there are two very different sides to the current femenist movement- those who embrace all that current society offers, and wants to add and change it so that women have better treatment in the industries they currently work in (such as the sex industry), and then there are others which take a very conservative view, those that are anti-prositution, anti-porn, and feel that we should have a very 20's view on feminism. I am very much of the modern movement, and i feel that a lot of womens view are very outdated, especially those in their late 30's and older. my mum was and is a feminist, and is very much of the modern camp, but then she has had to tackle many issues that her contempories delt with 20 years ago.
i feel a lot needs to be done, especially on issues such as self esteem and value, but it is difficult to find a platform on which to do this. Schools won't allow self esteem workshops to take place, and they still take the nurse/secretary/homemaker route when it comes to careers. i was told many times over that i'd find it hard being a sound engineer as it is a male dominated work place. yes, i can understnad that, but setting girls up for disapointment and/or failure before they ever leave school is awful...
I think the idea of porn/pole dancing/prostitution only involving passive women who are being exploited sends out the wrong message. It assumes that only men can be happy with their body and enjoy and initiate sex.
The woman in the top link was my pole dance and burlesque teacher. Can't be arsed to get into this debate because it's such an old round and round discussion, but I think it's a lot more complex than people give it credit for. 'Pole dancing' in itself is neither empowering nor exploitative. Neither is prositution, neither is burlesque, neither is wearing a goddamn bra. Exploitation is situational, not inherent in an activity and so discussing it in great chunks is kinda moot.
Okay - why don't you see it as hypocracy?
I think to counter this the idea that it only involves strong empowered women who love what they do is being ignorant to the exploitation that does occur and that because it's so hidden we only see a small tip of it. I don't think it's disrespectful to be vigilant and question areas where there is a lot of doubt over legitimacy (which is why even the law can't really make it's mind up one way or the other).
Of course a lot of women in this situation are being exploited, because they're forced or manipulated into doing something they don't really want to do, which can apply to almost anything and is really a seperate issue. For the women who choose to do these things it can be empowering, just as anything is if you decide to do it because you feel it's worth adding to your life.
The difference between women who are exploited and women who are empowered is whether or not they've made the chioce.
When women take part in these things by choice, they are acknowledging and celebrating the fact that they are attractive, in many ways but also sexually. The idea that sex involves men exploiting women and that only men can really enjoy it is still fairly common in our society, but it isn't a natural thing. Women enjoying control of their bodies and the growing acceptance of sex as something consenting adults are free to take part in whenever they choose will lead to more respect for each other, and the focus for people who want to help victims will go on peple who really are victims.
Exploitation in the sex trade will always take place as long as there are people willing to exploit others, and it's common in our society to view men as exploiters and women as exploited. If women are able to become more confident and gain control, and so lose their "natural" role as sexually exploited, there will be no room for men to be seen as "natural" exploiters. Anything to do with sex involves two adults that should be seen as equals, if women have the freedom that men have for years, then men will eventually be given the responsibility that women have had for years.