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Russia v Western Europe?
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Possibly with war!
Nato are being told they may have to deploy troops as pipeline policemen in a few short years. The melting ice caps are opening up new shipping lanes and more importantly a huge supply of coal oil gas and minerals that we have never been able to get at before. The race is on to stake claims. Russia recently planted its flag on the seabed. There is a mad scramble to grab the goodies.
It all makes a mockery of green taxes and adds yet something else for the worlds population to fret about. One things for sure ...every last bucket full of oil and shovel full of coal is going to be burned ... every last bit of gas sucked out the ground every last fish dragged out until the rape of mother earth is complete ...and the risk of fighting for it is growing alarmingly.
Nato are being told they may have to deploy troops as pipeline policemen in a few short years. The melting ice caps are opening up new shipping lanes and more importantly a huge supply of coal oil gas and minerals that we have never been able to get at before. The race is on to stake claims. Russia recently planted its flag on the seabed. There is a mad scramble to grab the goodies.
It all makes a mockery of green taxes and adds yet something else for the worlds population to fret about. One things for sure ...every last bucket full of oil and shovel full of coal is going to be burned ... every last bit of gas sucked out the ground every last fish dragged out until the rape of mother earth is complete ...and the risk of fighting for it is growing alarmingly.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/10/eu.climatechange
And its all down to greed. Just like the gulf war, in fact, just like most wars. Its terrible.:banghead:
ALomost 80% of the worlds fish stocks have gone ...only 1% of British waters are actualy regulated ...i think we are in deep shit here ...any of you clever sods see any light at the end of the tunnel?
But with other countries wanting to fight against everything, as you said, it aint looking too good.
When is all this supposed to happen?
I hate to say it, but the human race will be responsible for destroying itself, its down to greed, and thinking we have the power over everything... but it seems that is not strictly true.
We're doomed, we're all doomed!!!
of flour cut timber fresh water and more. Wales can be supplied with around seventy percent of its elctricity with wind and tidal but people keep stopping it. if i was god ...i'd be looking at these people in disbelief ...here i am supplying you with wind and tide and brains ...and you refuse to use them!
When will it start happening? It already is ...there are hundreds of thousands of people on the move right now.
They'll change when the lights start to go out.
One week it will be "what about the view!!" and the next it will be "I can't see a fucking thing."
Nah. I have my eveready torch, two spare batteries and a bumper book of SAS survivalist tips, I should be fine.
Good man ...I hope you can catch rabbits ...i'm already breeding them.
And even then, Europe won't have any conflict with Russia... she is far, far, far too powerful. We don't want most of Europe to be under Russian rule again, do we? It was a pain in the arse last time...
As for America? Nah, they know which side thier bread is buttered. Plus they couldn't even afford a war in the Middle East, let alone against an enemy of equal strength.
But if you read the story ...NATO and the suits are already pondering and planning. personaly i don't think there will be war ...i think the EU will move away from America and closer to Russia ...economicly and militarly ...out of shared interests. And becuase the way it's going ...the EU won't realy have many alternatives.
The Challenger 2 is the most advanced weapons platform on the planet, even the Americans admit it can outmatch the Abrahms, it's capable of hitting a target the size of a football 5 miles away on a pitch black night, and at the moment there is nothing (NATO or otherwise) capable of penetrating it's frontal armour.
Then you've got our air superiority, constant ability to refuel and rearm without having to fly hundreds of miles back to base would mean their tanks and troops would be sitting ducks.
This is assuming it remains conventional. If they start threatening nukes then I say we change the national drink to vodka and the flag to a hammer and sickle :P
As for using nuclear weapons, whats the point of using them if they'll just polluate the natural resoures that the war will be over?
And the whole point of the thread was to draw attention to how the world situation and its many problems are changing ...and changing fast.
...for your generation.
Yep, and it's your generation's fault :P
lol
Russia will use conventional warfare. Alongside better tactics.
So, when Russia turns Western Europe into Chechnya, and has cut off all our gas and oil from them, how ARE we going to keep fighting? Whilst thier subs obliterate any supply shipments?
Air Superiority? Are you joking? That is Russia's strongest point. Go and look at what makes up thier Airforce already. We have the Flanker, recognised even by the US Airforce (rare for them to admit it) as the single best plane for Air Combat. The Mig-29, a king of the skies. The MiG-31, which has the best Radar of any interceptor and thereby the longest range. It can lock onto anything first, and the radar is that powerful it just burns through ECM countermeasures. On the bombing front, we are fucked. Russia's fleet is massive. Tu-95's and he legendary Tu-160, which will just annihilate all tactical targets first.
The Challi 2 and the Leopard 2 are our only two hopes in the EU on the Tank front. And sdly, you must yourself admit, both are in limited supply. Russia has tanks coming out it's arse. T-72's still in reserve, T-80's in huge amounts, and some T-90's ontop. The T-90 has been recognised by the MOD as the most survivable tank on the modern field recently. The Challi 2 wins in all stats, but the T-90 stands the best chance against it of any tank. It's a case of who gets the first shot in, and where the Challi hits the T-90.
Naval wise, it is again down to the UK. We have the best in Europe. Unfortunatley, Russia has loads of crap, and even more crap in mothballs. So grab your geiger counters and keep an eye on them incase they take out some old Nuclear subs. Although the last of the old K-19's is gone at least. But let us be honest, between the Akula class and the Typhoon, and thier physcoticly powerful ships, in huge numbers, we're doomed.
So, all in all, even if it ended up with Britain, Germany (we'll leave france out, yeah?) and the remenants of Eastern Europe fighting Russia, we'd still get destroyed. They'd be bombing the hell out of us, advancing stealily through, with the Sptesnaz sabotaging everything behind our lines.
It wouldn't work. At all.
Russian forces would be lucky to make it over their own border before being wiped.
The Iraqis used Mig 29 and Mig 31's during the Iraq wars. Neither were able to operate through the Allied jamming measures, and the Russians have nothing that comes close to AWACS.
Bombing? The effectiveness of long-range bombers against a technologically advanced country are minimal to say the least. Long range bombers are incapable of operating without air-support, which unless the Russians are able to capture/construct airbases as they advance, isn't going to happen. As a result their long-range bombers will be getting blown out of the skies by our air defences long before they reach our borders. ASRAAM missiles have an effective range of 10 miles, whilst our AMRAAM missiles have a range of over a 100. More than enough to blast the Russian airforce before it even gets to us. These missiles are in use by all NATO countries.
Tanks, the Russians have approximately 500 T-90 tanks in service and 4000 T-80's. The T-72 (as demonstrated in the 2 Iraq wars) is incapable of defeating the armour of modern NATO tanks, so they may have thousands but they're about as useful as chocolate tea-pots.
Western Europe is heavily urbanised, but for Russia to control Europe would need to conquer those areas. We've all seen Russia's failure to completely controly Chechnya, a country with no armoured fighting capability still managing to be a constant thorn in Russia's side.
The UK has approximately 500 Challenger 2's, the rest of Western Europe has a combined tank total of 2075 Leopard 2 tanks, 1401 T-72's, 1750 Leopard 1s and 450 LeClerc's.
Those tanks, are all capable of being arranged in defensive hull-down positions making them practically invulnerable to attack. Western Europe being attacked would have the luxury of defensive positions to fall back to. Russia would not.
Navies, yes Russia would have the upper hand, however any war against Europe would ultimately drag the USA in, so I think we'd be ok
Sigh. Incorrect information. Iraq had no Mig-31's. This plane is strictly for export only to the closest Nations to Russia, and indeed, I don't think any besides Russia have any MiG-31's. Too expensive, Iraq could never have afforded them. The Radar is still top secret. Iraq had MiG-25's with an out-of-date 80's modernisation package. However, the first A2A kill was by one of these MiG-25's (A plane from 1969!) against a squadron of F/A-18's. It dived from height, at full throttle, hit an F/A-18 and escaped. This was amzing by any standards. The MiG-29's have been given to Iran (wtf?) before the recent invasion. Needless to say, the 9 of them, are probably now in Iranian colours flying Beside F-14's.
Russia's radar is constantly underestimated. This was proved with leaked intelligence showing that the whole opperational life of the SR-71, it has been detected by Russia, who just couldn't do anything about it, due to its speed. It also has a system quite close to AWACS, although to be fair, a squadron of MiG-31's is going to decimate anything it come across.
As for bombing, well, the Tu-95's will do the good old trick of fly around the sea. With escort, to intercept anything retaliating, these will ultimatley reach thier target. Cruise Missiles can neutralise defense, sub or ground launched, as can the Tu-160, which will likley be the main vehicle doing alot of attacking the UK until we are in ground launch range.
Tanks? Sigh. The T-72 has been modernised to close to T-90 standards. Modernisation is a useful thing. Something Russia does well - you can get a T-55 outfitted with modern systems now. And a new 125mm gun. The T-90 is the best armoured tank going - and the T-80 also boasts a nice new ERA outfit. The T-72's mostly do, except reserve ones. But let's face it, reserve is another word for scrapheap. The US reserve is Patton tanks.
The point I was making with Chechnya was that Russia could easily flatten most of Western Europe. Then, with everything destoryed living in a wasteland, we could hardly support a war. I suppose you think we will do better than Russia did in Chechnya in the Mid East? I doubt this. Guerilla war is not winable. Check Vietnam.
LeLerc? Leopard 1? T-72's from Eastern Europe that have missed the last few Updates being outside of the Russian Empire, sorry, USSR? These are mostly going to be the Victims. Defnsive positions mean little when Frogfoot's, Mi-24's, and Ka-50/2's are flying at you. Not to mention Buratino's raining rocket hell. And Bm-27's and 21's joining in.
As for getting the USA involved, well, they didn't get involved in the last European war until someone attacked them, so don't hold your breath for the most self-centred country in the world to saves us. Also they are bankrupt.
One last thing. By the time this shit (if it would) happens, Russia might have every single vehicle it has invisible to radar. Tu-95's flying over undetected whilst thier navy moves into position invisibly. While invisible tanks roll over our borders. Plasma stealth is wonderful. Only thing not using it will be fighters.
Yes it is. Check the Boer War and 'Malayan Emergency', and Chechnya is pretty much under control.
The original invasion of chechyna involved the almost wipe out of entire Russian brigades, mass desertion and the inability of Russians to be able to communicate between troops on the ground and higher command. if they'd have been facing an army of any quality it would have been an absolute massacre (well a worse massacre than it was).
It's all very well talking about equipment - but its the men and doctrine behind it which count.
So BRING IT ON IVAN...
The original Chechnya invasion was badly thought out. Indeed, Iraq would not have gone so well without it. We learned alot there about fighting in Buildings.
Also it was orchestrated by a badly run regeime who had no idea. Putin took power and pretty much reversed Chechnya. Now it is far more sucessful. He turned it around. Also, if Chechnya has taught us one thing... it is don't expect ot leave the Mid East any time soon. Fighting militant Muslims is neither quick nor easy. To be honest, I expect America to bail in the next 3 years. They'll do a Vietnam. America has a terrible track record in war. They start something, then generally expect a massive victory and it all to end. I hope they are ready, because if they bail on Iraq, they'll only have made the Mid East worse.