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DNA data storage

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7178193.stm

what do you think?

i personally think any DNA taken should be kept and used in fighting crime. at the moment any DNA taken from victims etc cannot be used to match to a crime except for elimination purposes. if all DNA that was taken was kept on police systems, it would undoubtedly help reduce crime and identify criminals. though i realize the issue is storing it for life for those who have been arrested. yet it undoubtedly helps in identification and elimination purposes - it would be so much harder when there is very little to go on except for DNA to bring criminals to justice if we changed the system and only kept DNA on file of those who have already been convicted.
with a third of all black males currently on it. And people are on it for life,"
any one else think thats a bit too politically correct! i'm not quite sure how race is an issue with it tbh. the whole purpose is to store DNA of those arrested for criminal activity. race has nothing to do with it.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think everyone should be on there really. Of course mainly criminals themselves but if I was ever a suspect in a high profile case and had to be arrested and questioned and go through such a horrible ordeal I'd be thankful if that could be avoided by them just checking out my DNA profile and being able to find out beforehand the information they need.

    As for the race point, it's probably just to reinforce the belief of some people that black people tend to commit more crimes than white. A pretty pointless thing to say as it doesn't matter on the colour of their skin, the issue is crime.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm all for it. Anything that helps us track down the monsters that commit the sort of crimes where we might find a DNA sample is a good thing. I don't see how race is an issue either, everyone who is arrested has their DNA taken. If you don't get arrested then you don't.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Absolutely not. I see no reason why the Government should be allowed to keep yet more information about us. They've demonstrated clearly over the last couple of months they simply can't be trusted with what they already have. It's time to move to a state that only keeps the bare minimum level of information about us. Wiping the names of all those who have committed no crime off the DNA databse should be a priority.

    Whilst they're at it, they can also wipe the names of every single child that, to their utter disgrace, has been added on over the years.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's a terrible thing. Innocent peoples DNA being kept for years and years, compiling the biggest per capita DNA database in the world. The state does not need that information.

    And as for the disproportionate levels of black men on the database, it reinforces the idea of institutional racism in the police force. 'The DNA profiles of nearly four in 10 black men in the UK are on the police's national database - compared with fewer than one in 10 white men.'
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    sav wrote: »
    It's a terrible thing. Innocent peoples DNA being kept for years and years, compiling the biggest per capita DNA databases in the world.

    Why is that a bad thing? Like I said above it could save you a lot hassle if you were a suspect. If your DNA was stored on their database they could easily eliminate you from the investigation.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    squeal wrote: »
    Why is that a bad thing? Like I said above it could save you a lot hassle if you were a suspect. If your DNA was stored on their database they could easily eliminate you from the investigation.

    Then you obviously trust the state a lot more than I do.

    If I were a suspect, then I'd happily give a sample of DNA provided it would be destroyed after a certain length of time. I don't buy into the whole 'if you haven't got anything to hide...' mentality that is sending us straight down the path to a surveillance state.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's only DNA though, apart from being able to place you at the scene of a crime what other information can they gain from your DNA? It's not like they can access your bank details or something like that which of course would then be very different.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    squeal wrote: »
    It's only DNA though, apart from being able to place you at the scene of a crime what other information can they gain from your DNA? It's not like they can access your bank details or something like that which of course would then be very different.

    Only one bit of DNA is one bit of DNA too many. I think you just proved my point with your example. Like I said, if I was a suspect, then sure, I'd have with a DNA test because it would either dis/prove my innocence.

    I'm not a suspect, so they don't need it. The state already knows far too much about me as it is, I don't want them getting their greedy little hands on my genetic makeup too.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    sav wrote: »
    And as for the disproportionate levels of black men on the database, it reinforces the idea of institutional racism in the police force. 'The DNA profiles of nearly four in 10 black men in the UK are on the police's national database - compared with fewer than one in 10 white men.'
    "Institutional racism" is a problem whose scale is exaggerated by organisations desperate to justify their own existence. True racism does exist, and that is absolutely disgusting. There is simply nothing that can justify treating someone differently on the basis of skin colour. However, Britain is nowhere near as racist as it was in, say, the 1970s. Yet we have more and more bodies dedicated to dealing with racism which didn't exist back then. Did we have a Commission for Racial Equality back in the 1970s, I wonder? I suspect the reasons why more black men are on there is more to do with social deprivation and other factors. (for example, educational achievement for most ethnic minorites is lower than whites, despite improvements in recent years) The police has done much in recent years to deal with racism in its own ranks, and they are to be applauded for it.
    squeal wrote: »
    It's only DNA though, apart from being able to place you at the scene of a crime what other information can they gain from your DNA? It's not like they can access your bank details or something like that which of course would then be very different.
    Back in November, the Government managed to lose the details of 25million people. These details included bank account numbers and sort codes. If you managed to get hold of bank details in that way, and managed to obtain someone's DNA, the consequences could be absolutely dire.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Back in November, the Government managed to lose the details of 25million people. These details included bank account numbers and sort codes. If you managed to get hold of bank details in that way, and managed to obtain someone's DNA, the consequences could be absolutely dire.

    That wasn't my point. What I was saying is there is no harm in them having our DNA because it is not like they can obtain such things as bank details from DNA.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    squeal wrote: »
    That wasn't my point. What I was saying is there is no harm in them having our DNA because it is not like they can obtain such things as bank details from DNA.
    Give it time - it's only a matter at time before some gimp at a big bank says they want to take customers DNA "for security reasons" and "in order to verify their identity". Banks have been told off on more than one occasion about their cavalier attitude to customer data - Alliance & Leicester were given a huge fine last year after losing a laptop with the details of customers. The only shock is that nobody's suggested this craziness yet.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    well... in the real world if you got someones dna (from details being lost or whatever) what exactly would you do with it?
    bank details are somewhat different...
    i think the advantages of storing it outweigh the disadvantages by a long shot.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    I don't see how race is an issue either, everyone who is arrested has their DNA taken. If you don't get arrested then you don't.

    some races are arrested more than others!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    some races are arrested more than others!

    :yes: it would seem so from the article and that might be the statistics. but no one gets arrested unless there are reasonable grounds for that arrest to be made and that has absolutely nothing to do with skin colour its about crime not race.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    I'm all for it. Anything that helps us track down the monsters that commit the sort of crimes where we might find a DNA sample is a good thing. I don't see how race is an issue either, everyone who is arrested has their DNA taken. If you don't get arrested then you don't.

    i havent broken any law i refuse to have my DNA stored, since it assumes i'll break the law, now tell me i have to.....

    DNA evidence need to be accompanied with context, since it is very circumstancial

    i'd agree with anyone convicted of a violent crime having their DNA stored - i'd also provide a dna sample for a one off test to rule myself out if it were a crime i knew i could be a possible suspect, at my discretion and in the knowledge it wont be used afterwards for other possible crimes

    someone who has't been charged hasn't done anything wrong legally and shouldn't have it stored
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    otter wrote: »
    :yes: it would seem so from the article and that might be the statistics. but no one gets arrested unless there are reasonable grounds for that arrest to be made and that has absolutely nothing to do with skin colour its about crime not race.

    Sorry but that seems like a view seen through a pair of rose glasses to me. Our police force are just as corrupt as any other, and people can and do get arrested without adequate grounds, and I'm sure there may be forum members on here who have experienced this. I'm sure theres a Telegraph report about somewhere which reckons that our police force is as corrupt as those in third world countries.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Doofay wrote: »
    Sorry but that seems like a view seen through a pair of rose glasses to me. Our police force are just as corrupt as any other, and people can and do get arrested without adequate grounds, and I'm sure there may be forum members on here who have experienced this. I'm sure theres a Telegraph report about somewhere which reckons that our police force is as corrupt as those in third world countries.

    i'm sure there are many people who would tell you they 'haven't done anything wrong' as they are carted off to the nick. but hell... if what i said before was wrong you'd be well within your rights to sue the force for wrongful arrest. some people are arrested and are innocent from the outset fair enough but any arrest is made on the grounds of reasonable belief that a crime has been committed.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Some crimes, some of the most horrific crimes such as rape or murder, cannot be solved without DNA evidence.

    If you do door to door enquiries, 99% of people won't have seen anything, the other 1% won't have seen anything of any use. CCTV, despite it's percieved prevalence in our society doesn't cover every street, it doesn't cover every alleyway. Once murdered, a victim (unsurprisingly) won't be able to point out their attacker in a lineup (which can only be made once we have a suspect anyway).
    If you have a national DNA database, or at least keep DNA of people once it's been taken then crimes like the above become solveable.

    And the people who have suggested that a DNA file can be stolen and misused, don't worry. Your actual DNA isn't stored on file. The digital fingerprint of it is. The police and forensic science service don't have rooms and rooms full of little vials with a hair, or drop of blood in them.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru

    someone who has't been charged hasn't done anything wrong legally and shouldn't have it stored

    Why? You've got to give a better answer than "I don't want the government knowing lots about me" or "it infringes my civil liberties".

    The government, and by extension the police can find out whatever they want about you, regardless of wether you've been convicted of a crime or not. We don't, because frankly you're not that interesting :p
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    some races are arrested more than others!

    It depends on the area. If your primary beat is an inner-city area with a high proportion of ethnic minorities, then yes those races will be arrested more often, because they will be the ones comitting the crime, it's down to numbers not race.

    In an area where it's an even mix and black/asian people are being stopped more often then obviously something is wrong.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    otter wrote: »
    :yes: it would seem so from the article and that might be the statistics. but no one gets arrested unless there are reasonable grounds for that arrest to be made and that has absolutely nothing to do with skin colour its about crime not race.

    raflmfao
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    because surprise surprise they will be the ones comitting the crime.

    The crimes the police are arresting for, you mean?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    Why? You've got to give a better answer than "I don't want the government knowing lots about me" or "it infringes my civil liberties".

    Why, just because you don't want to try to respond to it?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    The crimes the police are arresting for, you mean?


    If people are being stopped JUST because of their race then it should be stamped out completely, same goes for being arrested.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    Why, just because you don't want to try to respond to it?


    No, because it's the same answer everyone gives whenever the government tries to do something like this.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not a problem, I haven't heard a great response to it yet, so could you just repeat yourself for my benefit?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's not my place to give a better reason for not wanting DNA on file when I think it should be!

    I asked him why he didn't want his DNA on file. Saying you're worried about what the government knows about you isn't an acceptable one, in my opinion. Worrying about misuse of information isn't valid either, what would be the point?
    Lastly, DNA isn't the sole evidence used in a prosecution, the CPS don't rely JUST on that.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »

    I asked him why he didn't want his DNA on file. Saying you're worried about what the government knows about you isn't an acceptable one, in my opinion. Worrying about misuse of information isn't valid either, what would be the point?

    Why are these not valid arguments? As a minarchist and libertarian, I believe the state should be kept to an absolute minimum. As it is, the thing is far too intrusive and cumbersome without having my DNA or biometric data and the like.

    Different views are not unacceptable, just different.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    sav wrote: »

    Different views are not unacceptable, just different.


    True, but that's why I said it wasn't acceptable in my opinion :)

    But, I'm asking why people, with views such as yourselves think that DNA being kept on file is a bad idea.

    It sits there, waiting to be compared against DNA that is found at a crime scene. Why is that a bad thing?

    I've said in another post that the government and police can find out pretty much whatever they want to about you, having your DNA won't make that any harder or easier. It will mean more criminals who would previously have got away with a crime, getting caught and convicted for it.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    It will mean more criminals who would previously have got away with a crime, getting caught and convicted for it.

    :yes:

    katralla wrote:
    raflmfao
    :confused:
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