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Tories plan 'work for benefits'

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Link: Tories plan 'work for benefits'
BBC wrote:
The long term unemployed would be forced to work for their benefits under plans outlined by the Conservatives.

People claiming Jobseekers' Allowance for more than two years would have to do 12 months community work.

Tory leader David Cameron said he wanted to help people get back into work and end the "something for nothing culture" of benefit "dependency".

Just seen this on the BBC news site. It appears -on the surface at least - to make a lot of sense to me. Long-term job seekers will essentially be working in return for their benefits.

What do people think?
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Comments

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    there was a bit on the news about it last night and how they got the idea from New York, a lot of people on it over there were complaining that it was embarrassing having to do jobs like litter picking etc..

    also that it didnt lead to jobs at the end of it.

    others were saying it was better than being stuck in the house.

    i'm a bit divided but looks pretty decent from the outset.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    there was a bit on the news about it last night and how they got the idea from New York, a lot of people on it over there were complaining that it was embarrassing having to do jobs like litter picking etc..

    also that it didnt lead to jobs at the end of it.

    others were saying it was better than being stuck in the house.

    i'm a bit divided but looks pretty decent from the outset.

    I think if it was implemented properly you could incorporate training, and perhaps even qualifications.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So if, say, an exerienced senior administrative officer aged 55 who has been made redundant hasn't found a similar job two years later he's supposed to don a McDonalds cap and start selling burgers, or be forced to accept another similarly dead-end, shit-pay job?

    Nice! :rolleyes:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think its alright as an idea - especially if it includes the opportunity for training but its only going to work properly if there are jobs for people to go to at the end of the day. It kind of assumes that people are unemployed because they are lazy rather than but if the economy goes tits up then your all stuffed a bit really.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    So if, say, an exerienced senior administrative officer aged 55 who has been made redundant hasn't found a similar job two years later he's supposed to don a McDonalds cap and start selling burgers, or be forced to accept another similarly dead-end, shit-pay job?

    Nice! :rolleyes:

    Only if you think McDonalds counts as community service...

    But yes, why not... If he doesn't want to and think's he can live on his savings he can stop claiming JSA. If he wants to continue to claim JSA he has to do a community service
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why should he do a community service? Has he commited a crime? :confused:

    Can we impose community service on those who pay less than their due tax on their income/profits through devious loophole-exploiting tax avoidance schemes as well? I know which one of the two is a far heavier burden on the country.

    Typical Tory right wing bollocks. Good that Call Me Dave is starting to show his true colours though, lest some people be tempted to think the new Tories are different from the old ones.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    So if, say, an exerienced senior administrative officer aged 55 who has been made redundant hasn't found a similar job two years later he's supposed to don a McDonalds cap and start selling burgers, or be forced to accept another similarly dead-end, shit-pay job?

    Nice! :rolleyes:

    Your hyperbole does make me laugh. :D

    "Why should he be forced to clean old men's diseased scrotums for his JSA?"
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This is one of those schemes which sounds like a totally reasonable idea on paper, and does a lot of good for the US unemployment figures - but unless its run fantasticly well has a massive human cost.

    Single parents in some parts of the US get all of two years before they have to go back to full time work.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't have much of a problem with the reforms the Tories are proposing. I just have one note of caution. They must be introduced and implemented carefully. They must make absolutely sure they are targeting the long-term unemployed and fraudsters. They must not target the vulnerable or those with permanent problems which mean they cannot realisitically work. If (and it's a big if) they keep to all that, I will be in favour of what they suggest.
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Can we impose community service on those who pay less than their due tax on their income/profits through devious loophole-exploiting tax avoidance schemes as well?
    The Left are wrong on most things, but this is one issue they are at least partially right about. All these attempts to "crack down" on benefit fraud and the like appear to be aimed towards the poorer sections of society. Now, I do not condone fraud for one second here. I think they give a very bad name to those who claim benefits legitimately. But politicians never seem to put anywhere near as much effort into dealing with tax evasion and the like. Though that might be because they're more likely to give large donations to Labour and the Tories. (Cameron, isn't it time you ordered Lord Ashcroft to reveal whether he pays tax in the UK or not?)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    So if, say, an exerienced senior administrative officer aged 55 who has been made redundant hasn't found a similar job two years later he's supposed to don a McDonalds cap and start selling burgers, or be forced to accept another similarly dead-end, shit-pay job?

    Nice! :rolleyes:

    What the fuck? I thought you could only claim JSA if you couldn't or hadn't yet got ANY job, not because you don't want to take a pay cut anyway!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    What the fuck? I thought you could only claim JSA if you couldn't or hadn't yet got ANY job, not because you don't want to take a pay cut anyway!
    Correct. Aladdin is either referring to tax credits, or just ranting hysterically. On this topic, both are equally possible.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Why should he do a community service? Has he commited a crime? :confused:

    because we're paying, so he can bloody well do something after two years.
    Typical Tory right wing bollocks. Good that Call Me Dave is starting to show his true colours though, lest some people be tempted to think the new Tories are different from the old ones

    Good - we're not talking about forcing disabled into work, or even forcing people within minutes of being unemployed to do it, but after two years I think they ought to be doing something. If only because if they don't it makes it harder and harder for them to return to work at all...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It would be hard to do, but personally I would rather they put money into helping people on incapacity benefit, the numbers on that have gone up and up. Either we are getting sicker (and if so we need to do something), or the government is hiding unemployment.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Good - we're not talking about forcing disabled into work
    Hold that thought...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    does a lot of good for the US unemployment figures
    really? where have you heard that from?
    my understanding was it hadn't had any major improvement on getting people back into work in the USA...
    or did you just mean that if they are ''working for their benefits'' then they are no longer unemployed?- which is just twisting the figures.
    Stargalaxy wrote:
    They must make absolutely sure they are targeting the long-term unemployed and fraudsters. They must not target the vulnerable or those with permanent problems which mean they cannot realisitically work.
    it would target everyone who has been unemployed claiming JSA long term. those who ''realistically cannot work'' wouldn't be claiming JSA they'd be claiming incapacity benefit so thats not applicable.
    but a note of caution - its naive to assume that the long term unemployed claiming JSA are either fraudsters or literally incapable of work. in some areas the work just doesn't exist.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just seen this on the BBC news site. It appears -on the surface at least - to make a lot of sense to me. Long-term job seekers will essentially be working in return for their benefits.

    What do people think?

    Sounds like cheap labour to me... pay benefits at national minimum wage whilst you are forcing someone to work and it might be a goer...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sounds like cheap labour to me... pay benefits at national minimum wage whilst you are forcing someone to work and it might be a goer...

    Wouldn't that idea fall down when a family with 6 kids, claiming hundreds of pounds in benefits, were expected to work 72 hour weeks?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Wouldn't that same family be on income support rather than JSA though, and therefore not affected by the change. I like the idea of an extended new deal thing where you get a recognised qualification and guaranteed gov minimum wage job if you want or have been long term unemployed.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If somebody hasn't bothered getting their arse into gear after 2 years of "looking for work" then i'm all for it.

    A motivated person can find a job after a few weeks, if they want something better they can look whilst they're actually working. It's what I did, and everyone else I know who isn't a work shy lazy person has done as well.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    well why get a job when to all intensive purposes you'd be losing money compared to your current situation, even when benefits aren't great or amazing they still outdo crappy jobs - id rather people had chance to spend time with their kids personally


    tax evasion is bigger problem than benefit fraud imo

    and would this system be run properly, of course bloody not
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    A motivated person can find a job after a few weeks, if they want something better they can look whilst they're actually working. It's what I did, and everyone else I know who isn't a work shy lazy person has done as well.

    Ah fuck off. It's not always possible to get a job in a 'few weeks' even if you're hunting hard and willing to do anything.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    Ah fuck off. It's not always possible to get a job in a 'few weeks' even if you're hunting hard and willing to do anything.

    If you were determined to work and weren't fussy about what you did, a "few weeks" is loads of time to get a job.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You think? How does kiss my ass sound then?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If you were determined to work and weren't fussy about what you did, a "few weeks" is loads of time to get a job.

    Says the Southerner. My mate from Brighton came up here and was shocked at the lack of jobs, and the wages on offer to him. It took him about a month to find a job. This is a bloke with over 10 years experience in the restaurant industry as a manager, head chef, waiter, barman, and he got a job for £6.50 an hour. He'd left a job worth £25k a year to move up here with his girlfriend. It took him about 5 minutes to get put in a job by a temping agency when he went back down to Brighton. If it's that hard for him to get a job, imagine how hard it is for someone with few skills and little experience.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    They must make absolutely sure they are targeting the long-term unemployed and fraudsters. They must not target the vulnerable or those with permanent problems which mean they cannot realisitically work.
    Although he is wrong on most things, his tentatively-worded qualification here is exactly what the Conservatives cannot and will not and will not care about doing. Vulnerable, permanent problems... it's all fair game. Also some people on here are saying that there's nothing to do with incapacity benefits but in fact the proposals do include that.
    Proposals wrote:
    Year-long community work programmes for all those on the dole for two years or more. Those who refuse to lose jobseeker's allowance (JSA).

    Extra penalties for those who refuse reasonable job offers, including removing JSA for up to three years for a third refusal.

    All of the 2.64 million incapacity benefit (IB) claimants to be reassessed and put on the lower JSA if they are fit for work.

    The community work programmes and back-to-work packages for the jobless to be run by a network of regionally-based private and voluntary sector organisations.
    So reassessing everyone claiming incapacity benefit. Suspicious eyes, interrogations about how bad that back injury really is and perhaps gently implying that depression is just something you should 'get over'. Awful. It stinks on so many basic levels. And this thing resembling Three Strikes on the JSA front - what is a "reasonable job offer"? Who decides?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    Ah fuck off. It's not always possible to get a job in a 'few weeks' even if you're hunting hard and willing to do anything.

    Bollocks is it. If you're willing to work, 5 minutes on the job centre website and you've found a job. A bit longer if you pop into a temp agency.


    As if to prove my point i've just gone to the website, stated i'm looking for work near my house, over 30 hours a week, days only and it's brought back about 400 jobs, including some decent ones such as assistant managers and security officers that are paying £16,000 a year.
    It took me less than 5 minutes.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    A motivated person can find a job after a few weeks.

    Can they?
    Ah fuck off. It's not always possible to get a job in a 'few weeks' even if you're hunting hard and willing to do anything.

    Exactly.

    Also, if the government are thinking of doing this, won't they have to pay the minimum wage?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Says the Southerner. My mate from Brighton came up here and was shocked at the lack of jobs, and the wages on offer to him. It took him about a month to find a job. This is a bloke with over 10 years experience in the restaurant industry as a manager, head chef, waiter, barman, and he got a job for £6.50 an hour. He'd left a job worth £25k a year to move up here with his girlfriend. It took him about 5 minutes to get put in a job by a temping agency when he went back down to Brighton. If it's that hard for him to get a job, imagine how hard it is for someone with few skills and little experience.

    I've got friends in Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds and Blackpool. The only friend who's struggled to find work, and by struggled i mean it took him a couple of months to find it, was the friend in Blackpool. I've also not lived in Brighton all my life - I've spent a large part of my life in Halifax.

    The assumption that I've somehow lived in a Brightonian bubble all my life is, frankly, a bit silly.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    You think? How does kiss my ass sound then?

    Makes you sound like a bit like of a plank.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    As if to prove my point i've just gone to the website, stated i'm looking for work near my house, over 30 hours a week, days only and it's brought back about 400 jobs, including some decent ones such as assistant managers and security officers that are paying £16,000 a year.
    It took me less than 5 minutes.

    Thanks for the direct comparison then. Because I just did exactly the same for my area (within 10 miles, which includes all of the major surrounding towns) and I got 46 jobs. Just having a quick flick through, and it's obvious that 26 of those jobs would require experience or qualifications in a particular field (things like legal advisor or pipe fitter). Of the rest, some might prefer experience, I didn't look at them all, and very few have any career prospects (only one was a trainee position). I know for a fact that even when we advertise a position as a kitchen porter at our company, we get plenty of applicants, so it's not as if people aren't going for these minimum wage jobs either. We can fill any low level position at our company within a matter of days. My step-uncle runs the apprenticeship scheme at BAE Systems, and selects the best candidates. They get about 10 applications for every (full-time work, less than minimum wage, less than benefits) position, and he gets loads of pressure of parents with kids trying to get onto it, because it's so competitive.

    I'm not saying that 2 years isn't bullshit, though you do have to question the sort of support someone is getting to find work if they can't get a job after 2 years. I think genuinely bone idle people are few and far between, and tbh, they'd probably wangle their way onto disability benefits somehow anyway. But this idea that anyone can get a job within 2 weeks of looking is just utter crap. Especially someone who's been out of work for a while, has a criminal record, has no qualifications, and the rest. I think enforced training courses would be far more beneficial than punishing people for not being able to find a job, and I reckon it's just more of the usual Conservatives trying to sound tough on something, without offering any real practical solutions to solve it.
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