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This affects more than rape with strangers, though; it covers the people who serially rape work colleagues, or the local priest, or the local village "dignitary". I've seen it at work with my own eyes where women who were raped were only brave enough to report it once they'd seen that the rapist had done it to someone else.
I can see the argument for lowering some sentences for rape, as juries are loathe to convict a man knowing he'll be sent down for six years. Send him down for two, because his case wasn't as severe, and they're more likely to convict. The problem with that, of course, is that it looks to condone certain types of rape, or certainly negate the seriousness of the offence and the seriousness of the victim's suffering.
i don't understand what you're saying here.
No, it can't. The only way forced translates into I didn't feel like it, in the context of a rape complaint is if the woman is deliberately lying. That happens, but it is the exception, not the rule.
Actually im not really sure either
I know it's not rape as such.
yes it is really.
Would any of the men on this forum have sex with a woman/girl who appeared reluctant to do so? Would any of the men on this forum have swx with someone who was so drunk they were unable to speak?
I would agree with this. There are a very small amount of cases where women have been proven to falsely accuse. I would guess that there may be a few more which are undetected (Some of which may have resulted in someone being imprisoned falsely) but common sense says that there are many more rapists going free because at the end of the day it came down to their word against the victims.
But as other posters have said on here, if you don't say no loud enough then secretly you really were gagging for it :yes:
No they havn't.
You say this same thing everytime this topic comes up and it's rubbish.
If a woman can't remember saying no, it should neither be presumed that she said yes or no.
If the woman is honest enough to say she can't remember, the man says she consented and there is no other evidence against him then the case should be thrown out. That does leave room for rapists to get away with things, but as long as you agree witht he princible that a defendant is inncocent until prooven otherwise, that is the way it HAS to stay.
Of course they'll say she said yes. But if she's in such a state to not remember, then they shouldn't be having sex with her in the first place.
What if they're both pissed, coming out of a nightclub? It happens all the time.
Not always.
I'm just saying that people do things stupid when they're drunk, male and female. If the female doesn't remember if she said yes or no it doesn't always make the male to be a dirty rapist, which is what Kermit constantly tries to make out.
Don't be so naive.
The fact that I've had sex on numerous occasions and not remembered it doesn't mean I didn't consent. I'e woken upo next to some pretty ropey girls and not remembered having sex yet I didnt consider it rape. I got in a state too pissed to remmebere yet my hard on means I must have ben upfor it at the time.
&You cane talk about informeed consent and informed consent but being pissed is no excuse toherwise for doing stupid things you may latyer regret. OElse drink fdiveing woudl be easy to blag.
Exactly, and the defendant should be put to proof. And the circumstances should be taken into account (i.e. if the defendant is stone-cold sober he should be assumed to know that the woman should be in bed with cocoa, not being assaulted on a corridor carpet six inches from her bedroom).
Sadly, what really happens is that if the woman says she was passed out, the case collapses like a pack of cards. This has happened several times, where the defendant is stone-cold sober (security guard, taxi driver) and should know better, regardless of how the woman was behaving. But she "might" have said yes, after all :rolleyes:
Would you really like to see men in court, having too proove themselves innocent of a crime that may not have even been committed? :no:
Just because they're sober and they should know better doesn't make them rapists.
Well she might have and you have to accept that.
Drink makes people horny, it makes people forget things and lets people do things they ordinarily wouldn't and later regret.
yes - but would you or would any bloke on here actually want to have sex with someone who wasn't in a fit state to make it clear what they wanted?
People need to be taught more respect, and to stop treating their sexual partners as objects.
I'd like to see them have their say, see if their story holds much water, yes, I would. It'd be much better than the current system- "oh, you were drunk, never mind, you obviously wanted it you dirty slapper".
It isn't the same as having to prove innocence.
Who said that?
Nobody. He knows that yet he still thinks it's an appropriate thing to say.
The system we have now isn't ideal but sticking men in court without any evidence for a crime that may not have even been committed is far from ideal either, certainly not the solution.
It has been proven by Amnesty International, no less, that that is the prevailing attitude in this country.
You and scrotey, and everyone else, sticking your head in the sand and pretending that it is not the case is why the rape conviction rate is a national scandal.
This has always been a frustrating argument with you because you can't or won't get the point. I don't think a man should be convicted on a woman's say so, but I certainly don't think that a man should be acquitted because the woman can't remember saying no.
There is a difference between convicting because a woman makes an allegation and acquitting because a woman passed out through alcohol consumption can't remember saying no.
Nobody here has said that depite you and until they do I don't thinks it's apopriate for you to insinuate that we have have said that, or even think like that.
It's partly my fault the rape conviction is the is as low as it is? Rubbish.
My heads not 'in the sand'. I know a lot of people think like that but I havn't seen anyone on here suggest that 'girls who are pissed are asking to be raped.' Until I do, I won't be accusing anybody of thinking that way.
Without any other evidence there is no other possible outcome. It's shit because it does leave room for rapists too escape, but I think if your going to give men a fair trial that is how it will always be.
You don't have to have passed out to forget - that's something you don't seem to accept. I've had plenty of night out where I can't remember shit, yet I've been mobile and fully awake. My descions on these nights havn't always been informed desicions but I still have to take responsibility for them even if I regret them and are ashamed of them the following day.
No insinuations were intended, and if you took them then that's your own problem.
No, but the example I'm using is where the girl was passed out, and that was her testimony. That was enough to show "no proof", and the trial was abandoned.
The defendant should have been put to proof, to decide if his story stacked up. It probably didn't.
In the past that is what you've said so yes I do have problem with it. It may not have been aimed at me this time but pretending to know what I'm thinking and trying to make me look a cunt like this pisses me off. Don't do it mate.
http://vbulletin.thesite.org/showpost.php?p=1487626&postcount=63
http://vbulletin.thesite.org/showpost.php?p=1487612&postcount=56
I never ever wanted to have sex with him but if I hadn't gotten out when I did (two months before my birthday) and he'd have done something I know I wouldn't have said a word or twitched a muscle in resistance. It's something I hope no one will ever understand fully but know that too many do.
I think of this every time I see court cases with ridiculous sentences or where they drop the cases because of lack of evidence. I think of how many there are out there with similar stories, most having experienced something worse. Girls that wouldn't ever want to try to make a case because you pretty much need to be beaten blue or worse to get the bastards.
What would have benefitted me the most, and I suppose in some ways it still might, is some kind of help with dealing with the feelings that remained. I don't know what is available because I never sought help and didn't know how to. I was scared people would want to make a big deal of it or want to bring him to court. More importantly I was ashamed, depressed and wanted to prove I was strong by keeping silent. It didn't work that way though and I had a long messy breakdown about three years later.
I think the most important bit is to give victims all the help they need to deal with what happened and make it clear how to get this help. In most cases proving rape is always going to be difficult and it's something I personally understand even if it is hard to accept. Thus we have to do our best and also do everything we can to equip the victims with the tools needed to go on about their lives as normally as possible. It's crippling when you know the person who has had so much control over you could be in your local grocery store (the staff were watching over me like I was stealing something because I hid behind one of the aisles for a while).
In my case a serious illness that caused him to be unable to do his lifelong passion anymore brought me my justice. Maybe karma exists after all...
I dunno what the specific relevence is to this thread but thought it would give some food for thought. If something like that went to court, and the legislation was changed, even though I did nothing wrong is saying that enough? If I get my words mixed up in my defence, should I be found guilty of sexual assualt?
The problem is although rape and crimes of a sexual nature are harder to prove than other crimes because of the definition of consent etc. if you make it so the defendant has to defend himself even if there's no evidence that a crime was committed then it makes it more likely that a wrongful conviction could occur.
An Jaloux I'm glad to hear you got out before things took a turn for the worst. I think the whole issue of rape conviction comes down to the lesser of two evils. Whilst I agree with Kermit that rapists are nasty individuals and therefore we should edge towards the benefit of the victim vs. the rapist, we can't assume someone accused of rape is a rapist.
It's really worrying that some people when they see a rape case will assume that the man is guilty and got off, because the conviction rate is so low. The amount of guilty people getting away with it is seriously damaging the credibility of innocence of those who were simply accused and did nothing wrong.
The bizarre thing is the girl who kind of accused me but not is still friends with me and doesn't bear any animosity towards me. Whereas for me I still feel edgy about her. She should be ashamed though (even though she never formally accused me, just said I did behind my back) because she's taking away credibility from real victims. (P.s. we thought about it and the reason she seemed to accuse me was because it was wrong i.e. unfaithful to my partner and she couldn't accept the guilt [brought up quite spoilt, can do no wrong and so on] so externalised it. Still doesn't make me feel better!)
great post. I think you are right about victims of rape having more chance to get the help they need - that should happen alongside something being done to improve this system within which rapists are able to get away with what they do because their victims feel unable to persue a conviction.
It was either that or Lord Irvine's wallpaper; guess what won.
Remeber that when you think about voting for Gordon Brown; a cunt so gigantic he makes Tony Blair look like an ordinary backstabbing arsehole in comparison.
:O I really didn't know that! Are there no rape crisis centres any more