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Faith Schools again

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tees/6955889.stm

Yet again highlighting how ridiculous it is to seperate children based on the religion of their parents.
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Faith schools are extremely undesirable for more than one reason.

    The sooner we do away with them, the better.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    catch-22. Reading that it says that she cannot go because she is not Catholic and yet the diocese says
    A diocesan spokesman said it welcomed adults who wanted to become followers of Christ's teachings, but that children were "another matter".

    He said only parents who are themselves Catholic Christians could make such a commitment for their child.

    So, she's screwed that way too.

    Sometimes I really wonder how "Christian" the Catholic Church really is...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Faith schools are extremely undesirable for more than one reason.

    The sooner we do away with them, the better.

    Good luck. Over half of those new academies are financially backed by religious organisations, with the full support of the government.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Faith schools are extremely undesirable for more than one reason.

    The sooner we do away with them, the better.

    Even though they consistently out perform State schools?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    Even though they consistently out perform State schools?

    Fear of God works wonders. :p

    Edit: Are Faith schools state funded?
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    Bastards.
    Sometimes I really wonder how "Christian" the Catholic Church really is...
    Not much, if you ask me. I doubt any "church" at all is really that Christian, but the Catholics seem to be the worst (perhaps excluding small cults).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    small cults

    You mean Tom Cuise?


    Oh, you said cults

    :D
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Edit: Are Faith schools state funded?

    Yeah. I'm not sure what the split is, but they are funded by the government and whatever organisation is sponsoring them. ETA: just looked it up and for specialist schools, the government pays 85% of the costs of running the school.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    Even though they consistently out perform State schools?
    Yes. Small price to pay, all things considered.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Yes. Small price to pay, all things considered.

    Small price considering what?

    I went to a faith school and it made me even more dubious of religion and religious beliefs.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Yes. Small price to pay, all things considered.

    Giving kids a poor education is a small price?

    I don't know which is worse their dogma or yours.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Giving kids a poor education is a small price?

    I don't know which is worse their dogma or yours.

    Would you accept a school funded by Microsoft if it meant better results for your kids? And if they decided to cram as much pro-Microsoft propaganda into the curriculum as possible, would you still think it's acceptable? And if they could legally discriminate against children with parents who had bought a Mac in the past, would you still be fine with it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    Even though they consistently out perform State schools?

    Oh, and just for the record,
    Pupil background and ability, rather than teaching standards, account for higher attainment levels at faith primary schools finds new research by academics at LSE's Centre for Economic Performance.

    Link

    I particularly like the bit where it states that schools where the faith schools who leave the admissions up to the LEA (voluntarily), see no improvements in students marks, whereas those who can pick and choose according to their own criteria seem to do better. Then again, when you can get rid of all the riff-raff on the technicality that they're not a member of your religion, and only pick the best non-Catholics/Anglicans/Jews/Muslims, maybe it's not surprising.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Microsoft is probably not the best example... given that it already happens.

    However, if it meant that our children were better educated then no, I wouldn;t have a problem with it.

    FFS religion is in decline in the UK, yet people are terrified of church schools... and put their own prejudies ahead of education...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Giving kids a poor education is a small price?

    I don't know which is worse their dogma or yours.
    Firstly not all faith schools perform better, and not all state schools, by any stretch of the imagination, offer an insufficient level of education. You don't need to go to a faith school to get a good education.

    But secondly and more importantly, faith schools promote division and for all the claims of good academic results they achieve also happen to teach superstitions and myths as truth, forever bending and biasing many a youngster's impressionable minds. I say their benefits do most certainly not outweigh their drawbacks.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Microsoft is probably not the best example... given that it already happens.

    However, if it meant that our children were better educated then no, I wouldn;t have a problem with it.

    FFS religion is in decline in the UK, yet people are terrified of church schools... and put their own prejudies ahead of education...
    When you learn that fundie after fundie is campaigning hard for the introduction of creationism in the British education system, yes, we do have good reason to be petrified of faith schools.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Firstly not all faith schools perform better, and not all state schools, by any stretch of the imagination, offer an insufficient level of education. You don't need to go to a faith school to get a good education.

    But secondly and more importantly, faith schools promote division and for all the claims of good academic results they achieve also happen to teach superstitions and myths as truth, forever bending and biasing many a youngster's impressionable minds. I say their benefits do most certainly not outweigh their drawbacks.

    And how exactly do you know what goes on in faith schools?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    However, if it meant that our children were better educated then no, I wouldn;t have a problem with it.

    Of course, I presume like any rational person, you would require a proven causality between the fact that it's a faith school, and the increase grades? Maybe you're aware of some evidence I haven't seen?
    FFS religion is in decline in the UK, yet people are terrified of church schools... and put their own prejudies ahead of education...
    And yet faith schools are on the increase. Someone must be trying to get the next generation indoctrinated while they're young.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And yet faith schools are on the increase. Someone must be trying to get the next generation indoctrinated while they're young.

    Got to squash in the bull-shit while their heads are still nice and soft - sealing it in with a whole bunch of guilt.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To be fair a lot of religous people I know think religous schools are a complete waste of time faith wise.

    Its not like if you go to a CofE school they make you recite the pope is an antichrist in assembly each morning and Catholic schools don't preach that the Queen's a heretic who should be burnt..

    Whilst they cause a problem in Northern Ireland that's nothing to do with religion and more to do with young nationalists not being schooled with (and mixing with) young unionists...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And yet faith schools are on the increase. Someone must be trying to get the next generation indoctrinated while they're young.

    I went to CofE, I only go to Church for hatch, match and dispatch.

    I think that you give them more credit than they deserve.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    But secondly and more importantly, faith schools promote division and for all the claims of good academic results they achieve also happen to teach superstitions and myths as truth, forever bending and biasing many a youngster's impressionable minds.

    You have evidence of this, across the board?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well it's the very nature of them that makes it true does it not? Faith schools by definition promote a religion they happen to be part of and will shun the others (and by the looks of it, in many cases even refuse to admit children who don't belong to the 'right' brand). And of course by teaching religion they are prejudicing and biasing the children.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I went to CofE, I only go to Church for hatch, match and dispatch.

    I think that you give them more credit than they deserve.

    I think the issue of seperation of children is a far more pressing one than the actual things taught in the schools, particularly in communities where there are various religious communities. I think this is particularly pressing in primary schools, where religious differences are emphasised for the few children who's parents are not of the religion of the school. And I have experienced this first hand. Kids being forced to sit out of certain activities because they don't qualify for the strict guidelines of being a "Catholic" child. Incidentally, I'd ask anyone who went to a faith school who did participate in such activities such as prayers, what do you think would've happened if you had refused, and claimed that you no longer believed in these things? Dyou think that would've been respected? Because I sure as hell don't. There's a story that Richard Dawkins tells of a boy who told the bishop he didn't want to be confirmed. And the bishop told him that was okay, provided he told him his reasons for not being comfirmed. Why? In secondary school, it is less a case of these differences being highlighted in school, as between schools. Of course there will always be rival schools, and we were lucky in that we only had one faith secondary school in the area. But school rivalry ends after school. You have school rivalry between two different faith schools in a particular area, and the school rivarly becomes religious rivalry after school (and I realise that this can happen simply between muslim majority and anglican majority schools, as well as faith schools themselves, but that's no justification for actively allowing them to seperate students of different backgrounds in the first place). We see the same with schools with vastly different racial backgrounds, and if race was one of the selection criteria, everyone would be in no doubt that it is compounding the problem. Why is religious background any different?

    But of course, this isn't my main problem with them. My main problem is with the new ones that are opening, that include (only one so far) constant religious propaganda. It includes everything down to the English classes consisting of the children identifying the nouns, verbs and adjectives in bible passages. But the main problems comes in (you guessed it) science, where they follow an American evangelical curriculum, which includes such bullshit as the giant flood theory, backed up by all the evidence these people seem to require, the bible. This isn't science, it isn't rational critical thinking, and it will ruin childrens education in the scientific field (it doesn't surprise me that the only subject that the Jewish faith schools fall behind in is science, and a lot of people coming through that education system end up not believing in evolution, but creationism - a conclusion you can only come to through a lack of critical thinking). And when all of this is being paid for by my tax money, yes I have a problem with it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Incidentally, I'd ask anyone who went to a faith school who did participate in such activities such as prayers, what do you think would've happened if you had refused, and claimed that you no longer believed in these things? Dyou think that would've been respected? Because I sure as hell don't.

    We were forced to go to mass, which happened about 3/4 times a year. We weren't forced however to pray or take communion, I did neither and didn't get chastised and my school was one of the last schools in Ireland to be run by priests.

    We were also allowed to question the Church and their practices in Religion class and didn't get detention of damned to hell.

    The same thing can be verified by the many people I've encountered who went to faith based schools. But hey, doesn't stop everyone else calling them child abusing brainswashing centres.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Incidentally, I'd ask anyone who went to a faith school who did participate in such activities such as prayers, what do you think would've happened if you had refused, and claimed that you no longer believed in these things? Dyou think that would've been respected? Because I sure as hell don't.

    Well I went to Canon Slade in Bolton (CofE) - which I believe is still, or was recently, the most selective school in England on a non-educational base, which is due to their high demands for church attendance to get into the school.

    For the first few years, up until about 4/5th form attendance at all religious events was compulsory - although this was mainly put down to not having staff to manage separate assemblies. From then on even going to communion (once a term) was optional. Participating in prayers and communion were obviously entirely optional, although your were expected to stay quiet.

    From 5th year/6th form on you didn't have to attend any religious assembly unless you wanted to. General assemblies were rarely religious other than some droning hymn at the end. There was a communion and religious meeting each morning in the chapel - which was attended by about 10 kids out of a couple of 1000.

    Oh and we learnt Shakespeare and Bronté, Dickens and Mailer in English - not the Bible, and Darwin, Newton and Einstein in Science.

    Religious Eduction classes studied world religions, and examined parables and occasionally the history of all religions. Like any school anyone who identified themselves as religious was seen as odd, not the other way round. The amount of drug dealing, violence and bullying was pretty much the same as any other friend's school - although the school does have a high level of academic achievement. No more of less suicides than other schools.

    Basically a few hymns and the church paid for the upkeep of the buildings.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    My primary school was a C of E school, but I think the only ties we had to the church in the village was that we would do a harvest festival there every year, and the vicar would come and speak in assemblies occasionally, and play his guitar a bit. We sung hymns but that's it. We had pupils of other religions as well, and we always celebrated Diwali - the children's parents used to come in and do an assembly on it and cook Diwali sweets and food for us, and we'd make decorations for the hall and stuff. I think for a C of E school it's very accommodating to other religions.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    My school was state, but that didn't stop assorted Ministers, Vicars and Priests wandering in and talking to us about religion.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    My school was state, but that didn't stop assorted Ministers, Vicars and Priests wandering in and talking to us about religion.

    This happened to me in secondary school and I'm sure they practically tried to force Christianity upon everyone in year 7 RE and that included the Muslim kids.:yeees: :rolleyes:

    In primary school, nothing like this ever happened.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Incidentally, I'd ask anyone who went to a faith school who did participate in such activities such as prayers, what do you think would've happened if you had refused, and claimed that you no longer believed in these things? Dyou think that would've been respected? Because I sure as hell don't.

    We had children in my school who were not Christian and so sat out assembly in another room only joining for the non-religion pieces.

    This was 1975-1981.

    Again, I think that you give faith school too much credit/disservice. A few bad apples doesn't mean that the whole bunch is rotten.
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