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Virgin vs BA

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
in Politics & Debate
http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2139118,00.html

http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2139312,00.html


what do you think?

seems like Virgin has gotten away without paying for their part in price fixing...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Indeed. Amnesty is always offered within the industry to those who blow the whistle.

    Virgin is not exactly innocent in this... rather than reporting the approach right away they discussed the possibility at lenght.

    Maybe this is revenge for BA's 'dirty tricks' campaign of the early 90s.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Unless you offer this sort of deal these sorts of cartels would go on far more often.

    Having said that I remember finding it odd when looking for a flight that all the trans-atlantic carriers quickly decided on a fuel surcharge which was very similar.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Until recently (and as complained about by BMI and other airlines) the 'big four' airlines that offer flights between Heathrow and NY offered business fares that were identical to the penny between each other.

    They have a nice cartel going alright.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i havent read the links but i like virgin more
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Until recently (and as complained about by BMI and other airlines) the 'big four' airlines that offer flights between Heathrow and NY offered business fares that were identical to the penny between each other.

    They have a nice cartel going alright.

    Yeah the fact BA & Virgin are the only airlines allowed to fly direct to the USA + their American counter Parts is a major price fix in itself.

    That is due for a major shakeup - not just price wise but think of all the fuel other airline have to waste flying to from the UK to other European Airports before they can then take you to the USA.

    There's plenty of airline I bet, ready, willing and able to start flying people direct to the USA and at much better prices.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    Unless you offer this sort of deal these sorts of cartels would go on far more often.

    Well the incentive is NOT to be the last man standing who gets handed the fine.

    However why is there no reward for any individual employee that blows the whistle? Say a 10% cut of the total fine upto a maximum amount of say £1 Million. Would have probably gotten both companies found out a lot sooner and save the air passenger paying public a lot of money a lot more sooner.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    rachie004 wrote: »
    Look at manchester as an example; BA has ONE long haul route
    Is that right? That's absolutely shocking! :eek:

    Piss poor in fact.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I do find it hard to think that if there's a demand for flights from Manchester to the USA either BA or Virgin would fill it. However if they're the only two players in the game not much of an incentive compared to having an open market.

    The USA is about the size of Europe - so saying only four airlines can fly directly there is kinda lame.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    offering full protection to employees plus a % of fine who whistleblow is a better option
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well the total has risen to £270 Million with American fine as well.

    http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2139118,00.html

    I assume there's nothing to stop Virgin Passengers asking for a refund? Not just BA passengers?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    America should scrap its ridiculous regulations that prevent more than 4 carriers operating between the US and UK and European airlines from competing in the American domestic market. Its creating opportunities for this type of thing to happen.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Im biased towards Virgin Atlantic, but I do think Virgin have been very crafty. It looks like they have just as dirty hands as BA, but managed to get immunity by reporting BA to the OFT and DoJ.

    Im also no fan of BA, and think in terms of reputation Virgin had more to loose than BA.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't think Virgin have been crafty, their directors cut the deal and then when the board found out they blew the whistle. BA were happy to keep counting the cash.

    I'd echo Rachie's sentiments, really. BA are vermin and if they go under then I won't shed a single tear. As much as anything, it will teach the illegal striking filth who work for them a serious lesson.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    LOL! Trust you Kermit to try to turn an issue of CEOs and boardroom members ripping customers off out of pure greed into an anti-workers and anti-strikes rant. :D
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    LOL! Trust you Kermit to try to turn an issue of CEOs and boardroom members ripping customers off out of pure greed into an anti-workers and anti-strikes rant. :D

    Two sides of the same coin. The greedy trade union CEOs did the same thing and were hailed as heroes on here...

    BA is rotten to the core:D
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Richard Branson, you old dog. :p That was my first thought on reading this story. I really can't work up a fuss over British Airways getting a £270m fine. Willie Walsh, the man who runs BA, should now be out of a job. How can anyone have confidence in a man who stays in his job after his company gets such a huge fine?
    Kermit wrote: »
    I'd echo Rachie's sentiments, really. BA are vermin and if they go under then I won't shed a single tear. As much as anything, it will teach the illegal striking filth who work for them a serious lesson.
    I love the way that trade unions are given an easy time on these boards. The vermin who run these aim to interrupt our lives and to bully us with their hysterical demands. Whether it be the firemen requesting a 40% pay rise a few years ago, or the morons in the postal service currently on strike, there are plenty of examples of this lunacy. I think the trade unions time is up, frankly. Why? Allow me to explain.

    In the past, trade unions did useful work, demanding decent working conditions and decent pay. We've got that in most jobs now - after all, few people die in their jobs today. They've achieved everything they set out to do. Their bosses, then realising they could soon be out of a job, decided to up the ante by making ever-so-stupid demands. These bullying filth were responsible for the UK coming to a complete standstill in the late 1970s - Winter of Discontent, anyone? - and the crafty sods are still up their tricks today. History books tell us that Margaret Thatcher curbed the powers of the unions. Recent years show us that she did not go far enough.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    In the past, trade unions did useful work, demanding decent working conditions and decent pay. We've got that in most jobs now - after all, few people die in their jobs today. They've achieved everything they set out to do. Their bosses, then realising they could soon be out of a job, decided to up the ante by making ever-so-stupid demands. These bullying filth were responsible for the UK coming to a complete standstill in the late 1970s - Winter of Discontent, anyone? - and the crafty sods are still up their tricks today. History books tell us that Margaret Thatcher curbed the powers of the unions. Recent years show us that she did not go far enough.

    People dont die in their jobs and the unions are now redundant? Apart from the totally false nature of the claim if all you want in terms of working conditions is not to die I feel deeply sorry for you.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »

    In the past, trade unions did useful work, demanding decent working conditions and decent pay. We've got that in most jobs now
    Bollocks we do.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    People dont die in their jobs and the unions are now redundant?
    I only used one example there. If I was to write in detail, I'd be here for hours, and I'm meant to start work at 5pm today. :p
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Unions are far from perfect (any big group of humans tends to be fairly rubbish) and they would get better results working with companies rather than against them - but to suggest that we have it good and they are not needed is just stupid.

    Frankly SG you show yourself up in P&D time and again with your totally black and white view of the world.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It seems slightly unfair that BA is taking the whole brunt of this. I don't think American Airlines, United, Virgin, etc were innocent. There's always been a cosy set up on transatlantic flights and all of the airlines have been up to the same tricks. I suppose BA are being punished for the mistake of being clumsy, getting caught and not dragging down their rivals with them.

    And it's a bit rich of the US to be fining BA in the interests of upholding standards and all. United, Delta and US Airways all went bankrupt - but all three were allowed to carry on.

    Everyone loves to slag off BA but they're a decent airline. I've only had pretty limited experience but I've found BA to be better than the different American airlines... Obv better than the budget airlines too but then they're normally more expensive. Lufthansa is prob my favourite airline... although never been with Emirates which everyone speaks highly of. (I've only ever been economy...even if I had the money I don't think I'd pay extra for business/first, hundreds and hundreds of pounds extra just isn't worth it. Put up with a bit of discomfort and have more money to spend when you get there I think!) But yeah BA really aren't that bad.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Disillusioned wrote: »
    .... hundreds and hundreds of pounds extra just isn't worth it.

    It ain't hundreds ... try more like thousands ...

    Can't remember if it was dollars or pounds but someone I know that regularly has their company fly them around the world on business said their business class flights are always 5,000 return from the USA to Heathrow.

    They actually got a few days off work cos they had to make two trips between USA and Europe and so the chap says do you really want me to spend another 5,000 flying back and forth ... might as well just give me 2 days holiday and save some money ..:)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Unions are not completely redundant, there's still plenty of crap employers about. (Although, unions don't always seem to be particularly effective - plenty of Kwik Save staff were paid up union members and it's not done them any good). I've never joined a union because the subs would basically be money down the drain. Union or no union, it won't make a difference to what pay rise I get, and if there's ever a problem with my employer I know a union wouldn't be much use to me.

    But if businesses can group together and have a body represent their interests (e.g. the CBI) why should workers not do the same? Unions are out of touch and need to reform - but when there's private equity firms/asset strippers about eyeing up successful businesses with an aim to sell off and destroy unions might help oppose them.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    rachie004 wrote: »
    I'm one of a few thousand people that would glady see him put him against a wall and shot
    A few thousand? I think you massively underestimate the number of people who believe BA is shit. :p
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    A few thousand? I think you massively underestimate the number of people who believe BA is shit. :p

    BA have been (and still are) far more successful than many of their rivals.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Willie Walsh, the man who runs BA, should now be out of a job.

    So he should take the blame for this even though he wasnt actually an employee of the company at the time?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    So he should take the blame for this even though he wasnt actually an employee of the company at the time?

    Exactly, it was no way Willie Walsh's fault. If its anyones responsibility it should be Rod Eddington.

    BA are a bunch of dirty bastards anyway, all this is confirmed they havent changed. There are worse airlines **cough- ryanair** but BA doesnt deserve the position it has.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There's nothing wrong with trade unions when they play by the rules, but when the "solidarity" means that hundreds of thousands of people get left stranded because of a spat between a bankrupt company tangentially linked to BA and a score of low-paid workers, then I have no sympathy.

    Every BA member of staff who walked out last August should have been summarily dismissed, and the ringleaders should have been made personally liable for BA's losses.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    DG wrote: »
    http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2139118,00.html

    http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2139312,00.html


    what do you think?

    seems like Virgin has gotten away without paying for their part in price fixing...

    I don't see why we need competition regulators. Monopolies exist because of government.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    weallfollowthe... wrote: »
    I don't see why we need competition regulators. Monopolies exist because of government.

    Attack of the free marketeers! Run away! Arggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!


    :rolleyes:
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