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Up to 15 demonstrators "liberated" by US troops

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Iraqi demonstrators protesting against American soldiers occupying a school were shot by US forces yesterday. Between 10 and 17 people are reported killed and dozens more injured. Story here.


Qatar's al-Jazeera television station reported that troops had fired on the demonstrators in the town of Falluja, around 30 miles west of Baghdad, after someone in the crowd threw a stone at US soldiers.

I remember pnj saying yesterday Ariel Sharon was advising the US government on 'security' issues. If the above is true it would appear the Americans are taking his advice seriously.

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In this particular incident what I'm criticizing (providing the reports are true that the demonstrators are completely unarmed) is the gun-ho, 'shoot first ask questions later' policy adopted by US troops in this war.

    Remember there was even one incident when British troops complained about a "cowboy pilot" flying a tank-buster A10 plane who not only attacked a column of British armoured vehicles but kept coming back again, and again, and again to fire more rounds despite the British soldiers waving their arms outside the vehicles and displaying Union Jacks. One soldier died and many others were seriously wounded.

    If the US soldiers did indeed open indiscriminate fire on a peaceful demonstration because one idiot threw a stone at them (or even if someone shot in the air) then they have an awful lot to answer for.

    As for the mid term solution, it is very clear that the Iraqis don't want American troops there. It is not an easy issue and perhaps UN troops should replace US soldiers where hostilities are over- which is pretty much everywhere apart from a few localised resistance pockets.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You win the prize as the only person I know who still would rather have Saddam over Muslims to torture them. A shot rang out FROM the crowd. Every Arab cleric who has called for Jihad and decided to use civilians to blow themselves up and shoot troops is guilty of any mishap.

    The Iraqi people and the Middle East and the World are improving. You just can't see it because of your blind hatred of America. It is going to be a better age for Arabs. They deserve to have democracies too.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
    You win the prize as the only person I know who still would rather have Saddam over Muslims to torture them. A shot rang out FROM the crowd. Every Arab cleric who has called for Jihad and decided to use civilians to blow themselves up and shoot troops is guilty of any mishap.
    Well I'm glad you know more about this incident than anyone else. I wish I had your connections.
    I take American soldiers are always free of any wrongdoing then? EVEN if the shot was fired from the crowd (which remains to be seen) you would think that firing indiscriminately at an unarmed crowed (other than one idiot at the back with a pistol) can be considered as excessive use of force. But no matter: US troops have gloriously and selflessly liberated the Iraqis so they should put up with anything that matters and not to bother the soldiers, even if they have set up camp at a school.
    The Iraqi people and the Middle East and the World are improving.
    Oh really? And is that thanks to the saviours of mankind and freedom too?
    You just can't see it because of your blind hatred of America.
    As opposed to you, who have never set foot outside your country, know little about other countries and cultures and yet feel qualified to call whole nations "cowards", "traitors", "Nazis" or "appeasers", I have travelled to America many times and count a good number of your compatriots as friends. But then, I dare to criticise the whiter than white, pure, good and just Bush administration so I must hate America eh?
    It is going to be a better age for Arabs. They deserve to have democracies too.
    What Arab nations deserve is to have territorial integrity and to run their countries free of interference and threats from aggressive governments hell-bent in achieving total political control of the area.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Can't defend it, won't defend it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Turns out that town was a stronghold of Saddam supporters.
    whiter than white, pure, good and just Bush administration

    Rice and Powell :p

    Aladdin, I want people all over the world to be free. Crying out loud. In Saudi Arabia last week, they had a day of programming on t.v. discussing farting at prayer services. (Although, the prayer mats are set close to each other so I suppose it's a problem.) But really, talk about the government being up your ass.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whether it is defensible will depend on if the US troops were fired upon as reported.

    CNN Report
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Greenhat
    Whether it is defensible will depend on if the US troops were fired upon as reported.

    Certainly will.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think the war was necessary, however I think it should have been left to the British to keep the peace, not the Americans.
    The Americans have so far been in the habit of remaining in their tanks and at checkpoints going beserk at everything they see. The British have been wandering around in the open with their weapons holstered trying to keep some sort of civilisation in order.

    The Americans were one of the worst possible choices to be peacekeepers, they aren't renowned for their ability to successfully identify hostile targets, their actions in killing more of ours and their own troops than the Iraqis managed to is evidence of this.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
    You win the prize as the only person I know who still would rather have Saddam over Muslims to torture them. A shot rang out FROM the crowd. Every Arab cleric who has called for Jihad and decided to use civilians to blow themselves up and shoot troops is guilty of any mishap.

    The Iraqi people and the Middle East and the World are improving. You just can't see it because of your blind hatred of America. It is going to be a better age for Arabs. They deserve to have democracies too.

    Do you seriously think Alladin wants Saddam in power? His argument is with the way that he has been deposed and the wider US agenda as a whole. Hes not a Saddam sympathiser.

    If the American/British troops shoot anyone you'll blame on the Muslim priests and call it a 'mishap'?

    "Blind hatred of America" doesn't come into it. I bet Alladin has drunk Coke, used American Computers/software and contributed to that nations wealth. His outrage, along with many others, comes from the total disregard for international law, warmongering and corruption at the heart of this US govt.

    Their childish 'need' for war has seen thousands of Iraqi's and Afghani's die,

    Their unquestioning support of a terrorist state has seen a wave of anti-western feeling run through the entire muslim world which has killed thousands in the WTC and probably thousands more to come.

    Their links with the oil industry have seen the most polluting nation on earth pull out of the Kyoto treaty and encourage the burgeoning ownership of inefficient SUV's that accelerate global warming and have opened up pristine area's of Alaska to Oil exploration. Their quest for more oil has also led partly to Iraq.

    But why I am really angry with them and so by default, my government, is because the UK has been sucked into a war that wil mean millions more people hate this country and want to see it hurt.

    The 'boys and their toys' attitude of the current US govt. is the most dangerous thing since the Cold War arms race.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
    Turns out that town was a stronghold of Saddam supporters.



    Rice and Powell :p

    Aladdin, I want people all over the world to be free. Crying out loud. In Saudi Arabia last week, they had a day of programming on t.v. discussing farting at prayer services. (Although, the prayer mats are set close to each other so I suppose it's a problem.) But really, talk about the government being up your ass.

    Imposing American companies and values on people while simultaneously stripping their country of resources is not freedom. Look at the British Empire, would you claim that was freedom?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    WhoWhere, do you think that the UK would have brought up the issues of the war, if the US didn't.

    Personally, I doubt it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Imposing American companies and values on people

    Sim, Bush said on American t.v. addressing a big auditorium of Arab Americans and it was carried worldwide on Arab t.v. stations that the US is not going to impose its values on the Iraqi people.

    So if that turns out not to be true, the world will know he's a big liar. The administration also said they will only allow a democracy. So I don't know how those two things work out. But we'll see.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its all rhetoric pnj. The very fact that the Bush admin is dictating what kind of government and society structure Iraq will have is in itself imposing our values on that society.

    Frankly I encourage Bush to keep right on misreading the values of Iraqi and Arab society at large, all the more likely that his grand "doctrine" will inevitably be shown to have increased our already expansive foreign policy credibility gap.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
    Sim, Bush said on American t.v. addressing a big auditorium of Arab Americans and it was carried worldwide on Arab t.v. stations that the US is not going to impose its values on the Iraqi people.

    So if that turns out not to be true, the world will know he's a big liar. The administration also said they will only allow a democracy. So I don't know how those two things work out. But we'll see.

    Maybe not directly on the values side. (probably moreby influencing which party is in power by giving them money, favours etc.

    On the companies side; they already have. It was reported in most english newspapers that the US govt. is already taking bids to run the schools of Iraq. (Which is a way to subliminally impose Western values on Iraqi children)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Whowhere
    I think the war was necessary, however I think it should have been left to the British to keep the peace, not the Americans.
    The Americans have so far been in the habit of remaining in their tanks and at checkpoints going beserk at everything they see. The British have been wandering around in the open with their weapons holstered trying to keep some sort of civilisation in order.

    The Americans were one of the worst possible choices to be peacekeepers, they aren't renowned for their ability to successfully identify hostile targets, their actions in killing more of ours and their own troops than the Iraqis managed to is evidence of this.

    :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Shrug if you want Greenhat, but you can't hide from the truth. And the truth is, the Yanks just aren't very good at playing soldier. They have repeatedly failed to identify the differences between Iraqi and British jets, Iraqi and British tanks and Iraqi and British troops. They did this in Afghanistan, Bosnia and during the first gulf war, not just now and each time you made excuses, but this sort of thing just shows how poorly trained they must be.


    Jacq, I very much doubt we'd have gone to war if the USA hadn't, but then we weren't ever a target for anyone other than the Irish, and unless they resort to flying jets into tall buildings I doubt we'll see British tanks driving through Belfast and Dublin.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Maybe you didn't notice, WhoWhere, but a Challenger blew up another Challenger in the desert. Blue on blue is a fact of life in war, and the British have historically done more than their fair share of it.

    As for "playing soldier", would you like to see the AAR on B2O? There is an example of "playing soldier" if there ever was one. Guess that illustrates how poorly all British soldiers are trained, doesn't it? :rolleyes:

    You're right though, US troops don't "play soldier" well. See, it's not a fucking game.

    How big a military does the United Kingdom field? How big a military does the United States field? How many aircraft did the UK put into the air for the liberation of Iraq? How many did the US put up? How many US helicopters ran into each other? How many UK helicopters ran into each other? How many kilometers did the Desert Rats move and how fast? How many kilometers did the Rock of the Marne move and how fast? How many SAS teams were compromised? How many SEAL teams? How many Special Forces teams?

    When you actually have worn a uniform and done the job, then you might have a clue. In the meantime, you're just a twit who doesn't have any idea of what he's talking about.

    Btw, you need a much better grasp of history if you think the Irish are the only group that Britain has ever had a dispute with or that the IRA are the only terrorist group to ever target Britain.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How many jets did the Iraqis manage to put into the air?
    How many Tornado fighter bombers did the Americans shoot down because they thought they were shooting one of said jets???

    tit for tat, the Americans are worse soldiers than the British. Oh well.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Who cares who can kill who better? Shut Up the both of you.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The British are excellent peacekeepers because of their experiences of empire and especially in Northern Ireland.

    But dont worry , the Americans will learn soon enough.

    As to the shooting of protestors , I read in the paper that men on motorcycles with Ak47s turned up and started shooting. If this was the case the troops had a right to defend themselves.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If this was the case the troops had a right to defend themselves.

    They also hid within the crowd. They are loyal members of Saddam's party. There were bullet holes in the school's walls behind the American soldiers. All of our soldiers know that to go to Iraq and shoot people isn't going to make America safer.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Whowhere
    tit for tat, the Americans are worse soldiers than the British. Oh well.

    Your "ELITE"

    This is from a member of the SAS. It refers to the official final After Action report for B20.
    The story behind B20 is interesting and sordid. The SAS has aired their laundry in front of everyone on this little ordeal. It's become our black eye.

    Following the emancipation of PWs and the return of Trooper Ryan by the Syrians a massive debrief was held in front of the entire Regiment at Hereford.
    The overview and timeline given to the Rgt. was very impressive as these men crossed more ground during E&E than any ever on record. They evaded effectively during the worst weather imaginable. When captured the men lived the UKs code of conduct. Several awards were issued.

    Once McNab left the Rgt and wrote his book, the Regiment laughed at it as pure horseshit. And then they realized that they may have heard a less than candid debrief from McNab at Hereford.

    A massive investigation headed by several former SAS men who now work in the security field was launched.

    When the truth came to light in 2001 after the completion of the investigation, we were livid.

    It turns out that the surviviors of the patrol had fabricated MOST of the facts of the operation in order to cover their arse and later to sell out.

    I will cover the items of point as I remember them.

    1.) McNab was highly encouraged by the Squadron Commander to take a Range Rover for mobility. He elected against it due to his fears of being caught in the open by Armour.

    2.) B20 recieved warning 24 hours prior to INSERT that weather would be well below freezing during the day for several days and they could expect snow. They did not take any of the available ECW clothing.

    3.) B20 failed to file a comm plan outside of the Rgt. They did not have a secondary let alone a tertiary plan for Comms.

    4.) They took one HF and one UHF radio. As opposed to the typical load of five radios per Patrol.

    5.) They had no CAS or NGFS co-ordination.

    6.) They did not do a map study and hence selected a LZ that was in the middle of a flat open field that was barren for 3 Kilometers in any direction.

    7.) McNab decided to skip filing an E&E plan. The briefing was "return to the last rallypoint, wait five minutes then tab to Syria".

    The SAS sent a civilian team to Iraq to travel the same route as the Patrol. This was done with the permission of the Iraqi government and was later turned into a book.

    The results of the fact finding are as follows.

    1.) B20's initial contact was not a tank. It was found to be a bulldozer. At night the patrol heard it rolling and assumed it was a tank. They launched a LAW at it and missed.

    2.)B20 then made a mad dash for their lives thinking they had just engaged armour.

    3.) The bulldozer was driven by a Bedouin who ran to his home and returned with his father and brother. Between them they had one AK and two bolt action rifles from the Iran conflict. The driver has been identified as Abbas bin Fadha.

    4.) These Bedouins shot in the direction of B20 but were well out of their effective range.

    5.) B20 returned heavy volumes of fire yet produced no casualties.

    6.) Believing that an Army would soon be after them McNab gave the order to ditch everything except one radio and their primary weapons.

    7.) Patrol stepped out at a jog.

    8.) They ran for over two hours and stopped to size up their situation and make comms. Comms could not work as they kept the UHF radio and had a LOS antenna and no AC overhead to relay. AND they had only two preset Freqs, neither of which would be hot until the next day.

    9.) At this time Mcnab passed the word that the patrol was on E&E and it was every man for himself.

    10.)At this time everything is up for debate. At some point the patrol seperates into two groups. Chris Ryan on point. Chris continued to jog and didnt stop until he reached the Syrian border.

    11.) McNab and two other patrol mates flagged down a cab and asked the driver to head to Syria. the driver agreed when he was handed two gold coins and understood the implications.

    12.) The cab stopped one mile away from a checkpoint. The men went on foot and were soon engaged after the cabbie informed on them. One trooper was killed the others captured.

    13.) Two patrol members succumbed to the extreme weather. Stan had run for 30 hours while wearing thermal underwear and dehydrated himself to death.

    14.) Bob was gunned down by Iraqis in a firefight two kilometers north of the vehicle checkpoint.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Who cares? can we talk about morals rather than ewquipment or people running around Irq blowing things up pointlessly.
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