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  • MikeMike 🖥️🎧 LandaanPosts: 3,476 Community Manager
    edited June 2020
    @Eleanor said:
    I'm also interested to hear what people's views are on taking down statues?

    Do you think it should be done or do you think that it's destroying history? Or perhaps you believe something else? 
    Nobody uses statues to preserve and record history; that happens in books and museums. A statue is how you celebrate and immortalise something in a very public way, and I don't see any good enough justification for having statues of these people in place of other, remarkable people who don't have a record of slave ownership or fighting for questionable causes (e.g. Confederacy).

    Why not build a statue of the first female fighter pilot? Or key figures in civil rights movements?

    In my opinion, the negative reactions to people tearing down statues are defensive ones rather than legitimate, logical, well-founded reasons. The bottom line is, too: tearing these statues down means more to the black community than having them up means to white people, surely? So why fight it?
    All behaviour is a need trying to be met.

    Want to join the community champions? Drop @TheMix a message!
    ZenBenMaPoppyBLainechubbydumpling
  • GreenTeaGreenTea ☕🌻☕ MidlandsPosts: 11,254 An Original Mixlorian
    Bringing down statues just has them recovered and moved to a place of safety.
    The one in Bristol is being fished out and placed in a museum at request by the mayor.

    They should never of been put up in the first place. The slave trade is a part of history, yes. Can we remove history? No. What happened.. happened and should not be celebrated or given credit, it instead should be used to educate others on how people were treated and how times have progressed

    The scars you can't see are the hardest to heal.     

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  • ZenZen Living the Zen life 🧘🏼‍♀️ Posts: 1,977 Extreme Poster
    I agree with you @Mike. Why should people involved with owning slaves be celebrated on the streets! 

    I saw on Twitter some people debating about someone who had done mostly good things but they did have an involvement with slaves as well. They were debating whether the good would outweigh the bad, I can't remember who it was though. 

    It may be better to include these people in a museum as you said but then I could just imagine the heart break black families may face when they go for a day out at the museum and a child asks their parents who the statue is off and why they have a statue and having to hear 'Oh he kept black slaves and have a statue made for him'. But then I guess it's the same reason why you can visit concentration camps - education. 
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  • BenMaBenMa Posts: 57 Boards Initiate
    Eleanor said:
    I'm also interested to hear what people's views are on taking down statues?

    Do you think it should be done or do you think that it's destroying history? Or perhaps you believe something else? 


    I loved this tweet because I agree with what Harry said fully.
    Children, after all, are not just adults-in-the-making. They are people whose current needs and rights and experiences must be taken seriously. – Alfie Kohn
    Zen
  • Past UserPast User Posts: 1,998 Extreme Poster
    edited June 2020
    I have mixed opinions on the statues because they are a piece of history however we do not need to glorify people who were responsible for deaths of thousands of people. I guess history can’t really be in the past if their statues are still up now, it’s not taking away what happened and people can still learn about it without having the statues there because they aren’t educational. in fact, I bet we’ve learnt more about our history as a country by them being taken down. 

    At the moment it is clear that direct action is working. Days after the statue in Bristol was taken down buildings named after slave traders have been renamed and other statues have been removed, this feels like a big step. 

    I guess overall I do agree with the statues being taken down, I value people’s feelings more than I value stone. For Britain to be anti racist, I feel perhaps it’s time to leave their racist history behind and not exhibit it in the streets.


    ZenLaine
  • ZenZen Living the Zen life 🧘🏼‍♀️ Posts: 1,977 Extreme Poster
    @Liam I completely agree with what you're saying about learning more since they were taken down, I've learnt way more about slavery now than I ever did at school! 
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    Past User
  • BenMaBenMa Posts: 57 Boards Initiate
    Eleanor said:
    Liam I completely agree with what you're saying about learning more since they were taken down, I've learnt way more about slavery now than I ever did at school! 
    In school, I learnt lots about modern American history but not much about modern history in the united kingdom. This period has definitely been a learning curve for me, and an opportunity to get educated.
    Children, after all, are not just adults-in-the-making. They are people whose current needs and rights and experiences must be taken seriously. – Alfie Kohn
    Zen
  • Past UserPast User Posts: 1,998 Extreme Poster
    edited June 2020
    Me too @BenMa .. think it’s time for schools to up their game 🤔
    ZenBenMa
  • ZenZen Living the Zen life 🧘🏼‍♀️ Posts: 1,977 Extreme Poster
    Agreed @Liam. Although I can see how the protests are a catalyst for education because people are going to remember it and they can actively protest which is a lot more interactive than sitting in a classroom, they're really having an impact this way. 
    Alis propriis volat 
    Past User
  • AidanAidan Clever idiot Posts: 3,026 Boards Guru
    edited June 2020
    Statues aren't history, statues epitomise how we take human beings from history and turn them into fictional characters.

    Removing statues of slavers might be the first step in un-learning that slavery is only a thing of the past.

    There are more slaves now than there has even been in history. If slavery was a business, it would be the world's most profitable business, making as much money as the next 4 most profitable businesses combined.

    The clothes I've worn, the chocolate I've eaten, the phones I've used, the books I've read- I have probably given slavers a decent amount of money over my lifetime.
    but idk tho
    ZenLaine
  • Salix_alba_2019Salix_alba_2019 Posts: 1,282 Wise Owl
    edited June 2020
    I want to comment on this thread but I've had to take a step back from all the BLM because it's had such a bad effect on my mental health.

    @shuanie along with everything that's been said, believe me, anything that contributes to the damaging stereotype of black people follows us around and reinforces presumptions about us. I feel like I constantly have to prove myself to be a "good negro". Believe me when I say this that our reality going through life is one that brings challenges. 

    I'll give you an example. Any stereotype that perpetuates black people as being lazy, disruptive and uneducated falls on us all. When it comes to applying for jobs, POC were less likely to get jobs if they had "ethnic" sounding names, but when they changed their names to more "white" sounding names they received more recalls. Because of the narrative fed though the media employers would use to discriminate against minorities as ethnic-sounding names would tie in with certain groups of people. For this reason, I was raised not to declare my race on forms nor was I (or my siblings) allowed to get anything less than a degree.


    There have been many times where I have walked into a shop and the shop floor assistant has welcomed every white person except me nor asked if they could be of any service. I've had notes checked despite a white couple handing the exact same note before me. I've been followed around in shops, I've had people hold onto their belongings tighter or cross the road in the street countless times. Why? Because the media continuously feeds into this narrative and stereotype of black people in such a negative way.

    It's a lot of subliminal conditioning if you ask me. 

    It is soul-destroying but you keep it to yourself every time it happens. You take all the hurt and you lock it away and you never talk about. We don't talk about our experiences because people don't understand what it feels like. But you accumulate all these negative experiences and it makes it hard not to let it affect you. 

    I'm not sure if this made sense I'm a little bit tired.


    Post edited by Salix_alba_2019 on
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  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,189 Skive's The Limit
    edited June 2020
    Most historical figures carry some serious baggage when you judge them by 21st century moral standards. People were not infallible in history, they still aren’t today. 

    I’m interested in people opinions on where this historic cultural cleansing stops?

    I think most people would agree that the Colston  statue in Bristol should have gone. But what about statues of the colonial Churchill and Issac Newton who worked on slave ships? These are obviously great historical figures in terms of historical
    impact, some of it good, some bad and some ugly.

    Do we tear down statues, rename buildings and streets for every historical figure that doesn’t hold up
    to 21st century standards. If somebody find something offensive (which is largely a subjective concept), is that all the justification required to remove it?

    I see that certain films and tv programmes are now being withdrawn and censored, even satirical comedy like Fawlty Towers. Are books next? To Kill A Mocking Bird, Huckleberry Finn, Little House On The Prairie? All of which contain racist language and attitudes common in the era they were written.

    What does this solve? If it’s simply a case of trying not to cause offence then I’m not convinced. I don’t think that’s enough.

    You aren’t going fix the issue of systemic racism in 2020 by censoring books written almost 140 years ago (in the case of Huckleberry Finn).

    Historical artefacts, culture and art needs to be looked at within the context of when it was produced. And if we are to remove historical artefacts and bits of culture then it should be decided by the community, not a violent mob.

    [edited to remove high amount of line breaks at the end]
    Post edited by Mike on
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
    ZenAidanPast UserLaineJellyelephant
  • MikeMike 🖥️🎧 LandaanPosts: 3,476 Community Manager
    edited June 2020
    (Sorry, this ended up being way longer than expected!)

    I'm personally not in favour of cancel culture, and I think it should be more about the way we use and handle certain things rather than changing them or pretending they don't exist. Context is everything and if we view things more complexly we tend to find the best outcomes for these things.

    My problem with statues is that they're there to celebrate someone, and when an entire section of society says a statue makes them feel like second-class citizens, I don't think there's really a debate to be had. With someone like Churchill, I think most people would agree he did something incredible in leading us through a war, but I also think we can acknowledge the horrific things he did and the terrible views he held. Personally I don't think he deserves a statue, but that's just me and I think we should be taking cues from the minority groups this directly affects.

    Literature being censored really urks me, though. It feels like the Huckleberry Finn edit was a decision not informed by the Black community (happy to be corrected if that's wrong), and more of a White person's attempt to sanitise something that didn't need to be sanitised. The use of the N word was deliberate by the author to make a point about racism, and it's better to confront these difficult parts of history rather than trying to tone them down for the sake of our modern sensibilities.

    TV shows are really tricky. When something is created purely for comedy, it's difficult for me personally to rationalise keeping them available on streaming platforms today. It's different to a historical documentary or literature because you can view those things as stories and informative pieces, but with comedy it's so bluntly going 'ha, this is funny!' which feels so harmful. And people can still buy this stuff online if they want - it's about what we make most available and visible. Although I've no doubt the primary driver for these things is money and PR, as far as companies are concerned.

    I think my overall view is that leads should be taken from the communities these things directly affect, and that context should always be considered. It feels less about 'offending' people and more about adjusting our society to make everyone in it feels equal and respected. If we can make our modern, diverse society feel more inclusive and equal for everyone then that's something we should do. Do I personally think we can do that by replacing the N word with 'slave' in 19th century books? No, not really.
    All behaviour is a need trying to be met.

    Want to join the community champions? Drop @TheMix a message!
    ZenLaineAidan
  • LaineLaine Fruit loop Gone for gooPosts: 2,767 Account Deactivated
    It's a tricky one for me I don't think statues should be out for everyone to see, I agree with moving them to a museum as it can be a lesson we can learn from.
    Nobody ever learns about the past to repeat it. It's important to learn what we move on from so we can better ourselves.

    Statues in public celebrate people,
    so maybe we should instead move them to an appropriate place and include everything so people can learn all about them. 

    Cancelling and unairing shows is also tricky, because I feel like  rewriting history and pretending it didn't happen isn't enough. 

    🌈Positive thoughts🌈

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  • AidanAidan Clever idiot Posts: 3,026 Boards Guru
    edited June 2020
    No one (in their right mind, at least) stands against the actual idea of racial equality.

    But if it was a choice between keeping their old shows, statues of figures they idolise, literature etc. and racial equality, I bet a lot of people would still chose the former over the latter.

    Certainly some of these steps are very necessary! The removal of statues like Colston's has created a slippery slope though, of icons like Churchill and Brunel being considered for removal too- and we're seeing important pieces of literature being altered.

    I think some of this can only widen the gap between 'us' and 'them'- and it could serve to rationalise racism as some sort of fight to preserve history or protect national identity.

    "A person often meets his destiny on the road he took to avoid it."

    We have to find some sort of middle ground!- of democracy (i.e. listening to the majority) and making sure minorities are heard too. Anything too far one way is institutional racism, and anything too far the other way is an afront to democracy.


    but idk tho
    Zen
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