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the right to die

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  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    Like I said, where it is predictable - i.e. degenerative disease, then why not take your life whilst you still can? Why wait? You know what's coming...
    How about wanting to live as long as possible, while you aren't incapable?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Is saying people should do it themselves while they're still capable not just a more extreme version of pushing people to die because they're a waste of space? Just getting rid of them sooner.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Is saying people should do it themselves while they're still capable not just a more extreme version of pushing people to die because they're a waste of space? Just getting rid of them sooner.

    Fair point. If I knew my quality of life would be acceptable past the point where I'd be able to commit suicide unaided then the law as it currently stands might cause me to take my own life while I still could.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How about wanting to live as long as possible, while you aren't incapable?

    Which takes me back to my earlier point. This is about society accepting that some conditions needn't be lived with, rather than valuing the sanctity of *all* lives. It's the "burden" argument.

    My point with not waiting until incapable, is that you then don't need to rely on anyone else, it means you take responsibility for your own choices and there isn't any need for a law change. If you really, really, don't want to wait for the degenerative condition to leave you incapable then don't. But also, don't expect someone else to have to kill you, just because *you* want to live longer. That is the selfish act IMHO
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    Well, to be honest, that sounds to me very similar to say that when you're about to die you should dig your grave, put a coffin in it and lie inside it closing the lid so that others won't have to.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Which takes me back to my earlier point. This is about society accepting that some conditions needn't be lived with, rather than valuing the sanctity of *all* lives. It's the "burden" argument.

    My point with not waiting until incapable, is that you then don't need to rely on anyone else, it means you take responsibility for your own choices and there isn't any need for a law change. If you really, really, don't want to wait for the degenerative condition to leave you incapable then don't. But also, don't expect someone else to have to kill you, just because *you* want to live longer. That is the selfish act IMHO

    I disagree (still) and agree with Fiend that it seems to be more about accepting people's choice to die rather than judging a life not worth living.

    And your last point brings us back to the case of Tony. He doesn't hasn't got a degenerative condition as I understand. The stroke left him in that state immediately. Where does that leave him?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I disagree (still) and agree with Fiend that it seems to be more about accepting people's choice to die rather than judging a life not worth living.

    So, would you accept euthanasia in *any* circumstances then? By that I mean the right to ask someone to kill you, even if you were capable yourself?
    And your last point brings us back to the case of Tony. He doesn't hasn't got a degenerative condition as I understand. The stroke left him in that state immediately. Where does that leave him?

    I did say that there were exceptions to the rule, but in most cases we are talking about degenerative disease aren't we?

    Personally I would prefer to see investment in supporting people to live, not encouraging them to feel like death is the only real option that they have.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So, would you accept euthanasia in *any* circumstances then? By that I mean the right to ask someone to kill you, even if you were capable yourself?

    Yes. Everyone should have the right to ask that of someone, just as that person has the right to turn them down.
    Personally I would prefer to see investment in supporting people to live, not encouraging them to feel like death is the only real option that they have.

    I wasn't aware that those things were mutually exclusive? I'm sure if someone requested euthanasia, they would have to go through a series of assessments to make sure they were of sound mind before it was even considered an option, and that during that process they would be encouraged to live. And I don't think allowing euthanasia would be encouraging that at all. I think it would be accepting that, no matter how hard you try, sometimes people just want to die.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Thanks franki. That's what I wanted to say, but my brain is made of farts today.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I wasn't aware that those things were mutually exclusive? I'm sure if someone requested euthanasia, they would have to go through a series of assessments to make sure they were of sound mind before it was even considered an option, and that during that process they would be encouraged to live. And I don't think allowing euthanasia would be encouraging that at all. I think it would be accepting that, no matter how hard you try, sometimes people just want to die.

    Maybe work has made me cynical, but you clearly have more faith than I do.

    Funding for palliative care will drop, meaning that economies of scale no longer apply and respite care/hospice care will be even scarcer than it is today. Pharma companies will reduce investment in palliative care and meds for long term conditions, meaning that fewer will be available and that will have a negative effect on people's long term conditions.

    At the same time there will be greater investment in euthanasia services.

    I think it's obvious what happens next...

    As the NHS further "rations" services guess which will gain priority? Keep people alive costs much, much more than killing them... Dementia alone is the biggest financial risk for the next ten years as the number of over 65s increases by over 50%, the second biggest risk comes from smoking and subsequent lung diseases. We are already seeing the Govt reducing funding for care homes and suggesting the people insure themselves against living longer and needing nursing care... I leave the conclusion of this up to you.

    Like I say though, maybe I'm just getting cynical.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Following Slartibartfast's question
    So, would you accept euthanasia in *any* circumstances then?

    I read that Ludwig Minelli the guy behind Dignitas is fighting the prohibitation that they cannot help profoundly depressed people to die.

    Taken from http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/nov/18/assisted-suicide-dignitas-house
    "We have a lot of members [who have had] depression for years and years and years. They say, 'We have tried so many treatments and they haven't worked.' If they tell you 'I have been depressed for 15 years and I don't intend to be so for another 15 years', who should say no to that?" In extremis, he will offer advice on how to end one's life efficiently at home.

    So I guess it comes down to physical health vs mental health. Are they distinct? Should as Minelli says a 'profoundly depressed person' also be helped to die?

    I have no idea where I am in this arguement. Mind. blown :crazyeyes
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    party poopers
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