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Multiculturalism isn't Working
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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I think that it's a bit hypocritical, to at first say that bigotry isn't challenged if the person isn't white... Then go on to imply that 'extremism' in religion seems to be the preserve of Islam, when there are organisations such as Christian Voice, who openly support marital rape and killing gay people.
Also, non-religious extremism, linked to the BNP and others on the far right, such as David Copeland, the Soho Nail Bomber.
At the same time, I do think that it seems religion can have a get out of jail free card on things like homophobia, child abuse and sexism... But that it seems to be pointed out in Islam far more than in Christianity.
What do people think?
Article
I think that it's a bit hypocritical, to at first say that bigotry isn't challenged if the person isn't white... Then go on to imply that 'extremism' in religion seems to be the preserve of Islam, when there are organisations such as Christian Voice, who openly support marital rape and killing gay people.
Also, non-religious extremism, linked to the BNP and others on the far right, such as David Copeland, the Soho Nail Bomber.
At the same time, I do think that it seems religion can have a get out of jail free card on things like homophobia, child abuse and sexism... But that it seems to be pointed out in Islam far more than in Christianity.
What do people think?
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He could also have talked about the extremist views of people like EDL in a much more forthright manner instead of pandering to the Express and Mail readerships.
So far as I can tell, it's basically a hotch-potch of random things from other identities. Either way, it's nothing particularly distinctive. What to do...
Extremism isn't the problem: ideology is the problem. An extreme follower of Jainism is only likely to be crippled in their ability to go about their day-to-day life for fear of killing another living creature.
No one we should take seriously is likely to claim that not all religions have problems, but to pretend that all religions are created equal is either to be woefully ill-informed on the subject, or to be being intellectually dishonest. Islam, at the moment, is currently the forerunner in the crazy stakes - in both potential and practice. And I hardly think it's controversial, yet it's paramount for an useful conversation to take place, to recognise this.
Again, extremism isn't the problem: dangerous and unsavoury belief is. But in this context (communities and peoples not integrating fully) citing a nutjob who blows up shit because they don't like The Gays, isn't really relevant.
Religions trying to claim special dispensation is a trick as old as the hills.
Yes, of course people should learn the language and a good knowledge of teh customs of the country they live in.
No, of course they should not ditch their own customs and identity (provided they are within the law).
Both things are not mutually exclusive of course. As far as I am concerned multiculturalism means we have Chinese, Indian, Asian etc communities here who are free to celebrate their roots, cuisine, festivities. They can perfectly do this whilst still speaking English and interacting with the rest of members of society.
It appears to me that a large proportion of those people in the Right who claim multiculturalism is a failure would simply like those Johnny Foreigners to ditch their customs and religions altogether and become Christians and lift their little finger while drinking tea with the vicar.
As Aladdin says, immigrants to any country will inevitably keep many of their own customs, language and tradition. For Islamic people in Britain that might mean supporting Pakistan in the cricket, or eating Halal meat, or wanting to build a Mosque near their house. For British people in Spain, it means eating in greasy spoons, drinking in British bars and never associating with those funny Spanish people.
It's exactly the same premise. People are tribal by nature, and they want to remain in a tribe in which they feel comfortable.
I'd agree that there are problems where immigrants come to a country, don't learn the language and ride roughshod over local people. But it isn't an Islamic thing and to try and imply that it is is very disingenuous. The problem is mostly that the community who can't speak the local language cannot engage fully with local people and so become an enclave- something shown more than anything by the British enclaves on the Costa del Sol.
But integration is a two-way street. When you have Cameron pandering to the worst kind of EDL nonsense, and you have the fragrant Baroness Warsi indulging him, it's precious little wonder that immigrant communities will pull up the drawbridge. If you tell people they're worthless and they should just go home, it's hardly a surprise when they decide they're not going to "integrate". Why would you want to have closer links with people who say they hate you?
Of course Cameron is just playing the old "divide and rule" game. Blame Teh Forrins for everything that goes wrong economically and, guess what, the Tory government ("putting the N in Cuts") get away with asset-stripping Great Britain for the benefit of the uber-wealthy offshorers.
Whilst I don't advocate pandering to terrorists, our experiences with the IRA and ETA shows that if you give people something to lose they will behave themselves. The problem is that the people doing this don't have anything to lose, because the real problem nation- Saudi Arabia- is still indulged so much.
Blacksheep, you're talking shit that Richard Tinydick would be proud of. Please stop it.
Here ya go: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/multiculturalism
The efforts to pander to every different whim that residents of this country come up with though does seem to be lead to segregation and entrenchment of very different life styles.
I have no problems with supermarkets selling kosher meat for example, but it needs to work in the same was as other supermarket meat products, and be properly labelled in english (or welsh) as the primary language on the packet, because they are the official languages of the country we live in.
Similarly local signs, council publications, by all means teach english as a foreign language to those that need it, but english is the language that should be being taught and worked in and that day to day life is carried out in.
We still have a Church of England and that church is currently closely linked to our state, so Christmas should be Christmas, not winter, Easter is Easter, not spring. Yes, any organisation can have it's own premises to do what they like with, within reason, be it play bowls, tennis, have a mosque or a temple in, but Christianity can keep it's festivals in day to day parlance.
Try that and might actually find that we have better functioning society, rather than one that's split up into lots of little different sections.
Multiculturalism isn't working, because you very rarely get multicultural anything, you get one culture, next to another, down the road from another and very rarely does anything mix.
Clearly the UK is somewhere in between.
Hmmm. Well, so do parts of the UK get 'close' or do 'remarkably well'. So I am not sure that those are examples of multicultural success on a national level?
Switzerland had it's recent 'mosque building' outcry and India has plenty of cross-religious violence.
So is multiculturalism therefore an idealistic pipe dream?
I don't think it is fair to judge a localised thing on a national level. Parts of the UK cope with multicultural life very well. London's a good example but probably skewed being a capital city, but there are very few racial tensions in the north east. South Shields has had a significant Yemeni population for nearly 100 years and other communities in the area generally get on fairly well.
I think the places that do it best are the areas which have traditionally had a lot of migration. Sea ports usually seem to cope well with migrant populations- Newcastle, Liverpool, London, Hamburg all seem to enjoy the vibrancy. Portsmouth is an example that proves the rule, really, but Portsmouth people are weird.
I guess it depends on what you would count as failure for multiculturalism. Does simply the existence of Islamic literalists in our country denote a failure? Do faith schools nullify any claims of successful integration? Do explicitly racist political organisations mean multiculturalism is a failed experiment? I don't know.
These are certainly problems. And drawing us/them lines is hardly likely to be helpful. But dangerous ideas need recognising and challenging - and I'm not sure issuing the challenge is admitting defeat.
Rephrased : Can multiculturalism ever really work on a national level?
I just wonder if there will always be a part of every community that will always raise tensions.
Wow! And they haven't been integrated into the community by migration and marriage etc? They are still distinctly Yemeni after nearly 100 years? that's amazing.
Hmmm. Food for thought. However, presuming that you are an atheist evolutionist (as I am), one would recognise that people are, unfortunately, not 'equal' and although education can inform and mould us to a certain extent, you're always going to have those chimp(*) throwbacks that will pass on the genes of intolerance to their own spawn, in spite of education etc.
I think true multiculturalism is always going to be a problem to introduce.
(*) Apologies to chimps
I don't think any community cohesion can work in such an atmosphere. But that's not a failure of multiculturalism, that's a failure of successive asset-stripping Governments.
Then the Catholics retook Andalucia, and everything went to shit. But that's another story.
I suspect that achieving one hundred percent harmony and integration is an unachievable and unrealistic goal, but I don't think acknowledging that means multiculturalism isn't worth striving for.
I'm hesitant to apply labels to myself, as they're often more trouble than they're worth, but I agree bad ideas on their own, or as part of shitty ideologies, are likely to foster intolerance. I also think that some cultures and theologies are inherently prone resisting the goal of integration.
I'd go along with that.
Where has multiculturalism succeeded? Brazil? Most people are mixed race, so I guess that's a pretty big sign of a successful multicultural society.
I think you mean multiracial rather than multicultural, as apart from some small Indian tribes at the periphery, Brazil is very monoculture
I'd also suggest the way that this develeped (invade, kill the chaps and rape the women and then pop over to Africa to repopulate your slave population) may now be regarded as tad too un-PC to be replicated.