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I don't think anybody is saying we should shop at M&S. TBH I think M&S for food is just an upmarket version of Iceland... the only difference is M&S ready meals taste good.
There's nothing wrong with Aldi - it's perfectly adequate for most things. However, nobody with any respect for food is going to get Aldi or Tesco Value meat. I hardly ever meat because I can't afford any that's of reasonable quality... anyway shitty value frozen chicken isn't healthy.
True.
Also, slightly off-topic but as is often pointed out, the idea of supermarkets being cheap is a bit of a myth... my local market generally always seems to be cheaper for fruit and veg.
Not legally they arent.
I agree and i didnt say otherwise.
I suggest researching the minimum welfare standards for pigs before calling me ill informed. Being intensively farmed doesnt mean they are treated cruelly, even though they could easily be treated a lot better.
Oh go on, kid yourself that it's ok because the welfare standards say so, and 'its nice to live in a modern society' (what kind of an arguement is that anyway, living in a developed society shouldn't mean we should accept cruelty, we should be trying to eliminate it).
And no, being intensively farmed doesn't, and shouldn't, mean cruelty but in a lot of cases it does - because unfortunately caring for the animal costs money. Yes, conditions are better for pigs and cows compared to what happens to chickens (utterly appalling) but that doesn't mean it's any sort of life for the animal. Just because it's not as bad as something else doesn't make it right.
The practices are unacceptable, legal or not - and the only reason they're legal is because any government who tried to change the laws regarding animal cruelty would make themselves so unpopular with the millions of people who can't see past the end of their plate when it comes to the choice between animal suffering and a cheap roast chicken (with money left in the pocket for afters).
ETA: sorry for diverging into animal cruelty, I know the thread is about whether it's natural to eat meat but I don't think you can have that debate without discussing today's standards which I don't think are 'natural' at all
That was in response to the "back in the old days.." and "its seen as bad if we cant have what we want when we want" type comments.
I dont take it for granted that i dont have to eat giblets or knuckles because of the cost of food. I enjoy having that choice and with meat that comes from prperly treated animals theres nothing wrong with that.
UK cows are grass fed and live a perfectly fine life up until slaughter. Why dont you direct some of your anti-meat/veggie anger to all the calfs slaughtered so people can drink milk and eat cheese?
Also, visit a pig farm or two you might be surprised. They are treated fine and their lives are in no way comparable to battery or value chickens.
"The practices"? You'll have to be more specific. Ive claimed minimum welfare standards for pigs are adequate, that i've seen a couple of pig farms and that any abuse is probably illegal so i cant take you seriously if you say "the practices" without being specific.
Maybe, but everything under the sun has been normal human behavior at some point in time in some culture, from cannibalism, ritual sacrifice to sex with children.
It's surprising how quickly current standards of what's considered normal behaviour get thrown out of the window when the chips are down and how far socialisation and personal experience can go.
Going back on topic, people are so removed from the process of where their meat actually comes from that any sort of commentary on whether it's 'natural' or not just seems like hollow moralising one way or the other. It's easy to say 'it's natural to eat meat' when you just pop into tesco and pick up a pre-packed slab; in some peoples minds they don't even make the connection that they're buying a slab of flesh. Inversely, it's easy to say it's unnatural to eat meat when you've never felt real hunger, have easy accessible sources of grains, preservatives, refrigeration and all the other modern marvels that make vegetarianism a viable option.
My personal view on the matter is if you're not capable of killing and eating your own food you should really consider whether you should be eating meat in the first place. One specfic instance that I couldn't fathom was a few weeks ago at work where a colleague mentioned she was against animal testing for drugs (ironically she works in pharmacy). I asked if she still ate meat, she did. I wonder how someone can hold the ideas that 'cruelty' to animals is fine and dandy for a bacon sandwich but completely out of order if it's to save millions of lives. She echoed what I said here: all she does is goes to the supermarket and buys it so it doesn't 'directly effect' her. I tried to tell her of the horrible things they do to chickens; she didn't want to know because it'd put her off. Even more strange to me was that this conversation was after a presentation on the relicensing of thalidomide.
I've shot and ate my own food:
It's not a pleasant experience. It's all fun and games up until you pull the trigger, even worse when you have to finish them off 'manually'. But I still do it with no guilt but it doesn't get 'easier'. I always feel personally obliged to eat everything I shoot though, otherwise I feel it's taking life a little too lightly; even if it's just a pigeon.
Today's standards?
You give the impression that most farming methods are cruel, they are not.
The majority of pigs being farmed in this country do not suffer from bad farming practices. Cattle and Sheep have good quality of life in this country. Poultry farming is where the majority of dodgy practices can be found.
Having said that, freedom of movement is not everything. I'm sure things are better now due to BSE, but some farmers used to feed pretty unbelievable things to their animals (which is indeed why BSE happened in the first place).
I'm not so sure about the living conditions of some of the farmed salmon either...
That reality just doesn't seem to add up in some people's minds.
Get off your high horse ffs.
I wish you'd watched Jamies Ministry Of Food last night.
Once scene perfectly demonstrated how some people struggle to eat properly let alone ethically.
People that eat value meat don't have a heart? wtf.
It's just most people look and worry after themselves and their family before that of the animal on their plate, and I think that's fair enough.
In some parts of the world, it is a necessity to kill and eat animals. However, you can be a vegan and be perfectly healthy (vegetarians statistically live longer, I'm not sure about the research for veganism).
So humans can be 'naturally' vegan, 'naturally' vegetarian, 'naturally' pescatarian (ect) depending on the food they are offered and their moral choice.
I don't think 'natural' is the right word to be honest... We can digest a lot of things, we are incredibly adaptable animals.
Some of us live in the position where we can make a moral choice, others do not. Many Hindus are lactovegetarian, many Jains are vegan... There are people all over the world who choose to abstain from meat for moral, health, or spiritual purposes. Are we going to call them unnatural?
Nah... They are doing what they believe is right because as a species, we have the ability to function on a higher intellectual plane in that respect, to non human animals.
I think the subject is a huge one.
Nobody here suggested they were 'unnatural'.
Exactly.
But to suggest something is 'natural' is surely suggests that the opposite behaviour isn't natural.
Hence I don't believe that it is natural to kill animals for food. It is natural to want to survive, that is all. Anything else is a moral choice.
Depends on what you would call cruelty?
The UK has better animal welfare standards than say... In the states. However, many people would consider killing an animal for 'pleasure' (as meat is a luxuary in the UK) to be cruel.
That's not logical is it?
Hetrosexual sex is completely natural, by your logic homosexual sex is unnatural.
It's in human nature, it's instinct to eat other animals.
It's not cruel it's life. Death isn't cruel, it's death and as much a part of excistance as life is.
And any food in the UK considered a luxury, because we thankfull are in a situation where we can choose what we eat.
I disagree. I think that it is instinct to survive and this often includes eating animals. That is why human beings eat each other sometimes.
That is why I am distinguishing between the drive to survive, which is what I consider to be nature and our ability to define what we see as right or wrong.
I don't think we instinctually eat other animals, I think that is a gross over simplification. Instincts are not learned, they are innate. To say something is an instinct is to say that not to do it goes against instinct, as we are denying something that we are pre-programmed to do.
Of course it's another debate. I think you missed the point.
Our biology is geared to having meat in our diet. We've been eating eating meat since the dawn of mankind and your denying we have an instict to hunt? It's one of the main reasons we play sport, it's a substitute for the lack of hunting we do.
That in reality had little to do with budget and much more to do with some adults just being completely unprepared for adult life.
A mother who has never once cooked a meal for her kid isnt going to get magically healthy if she wins a million pounds.
Linky
You can still watch it here:
http://www.channel4.com/video/jamies-ministry-of-food/catchup.html
I just watched it last night and thought it was quite good actually
As Budda said it isn't completely about budget but I think it is a significant factor. I think a lot of people find it really hard to comprehend what living on that level of income can be like. The reason I say this is because my cousin does and they can't afford anything. They have to phone my mum up to get lifts to and from town and things like that. They need help just keeping up with the basics.
I don't know how to articulate it but as Jamie said on the programme these people are desperate - so demonising them because they buy value range meat is not pausing to consider why they do that.
I live with a chef, and he says that the true measure of a good cook is someone who can create a meal with things like the cheapest cuts of meat, and whatever else is lingering around in the back of the cupboard/bottom of the fridge. I've got friends and relatives who can follow recipes to the letter and produce something delicious, but stick some random ingredients in front of them and they'd be stumped.
There's little use in telling people what to eat until they have the skills and motivation to actually cook the basics. As advertised, if someone can't recognise boiling water, they're hardly going to put buying meat surgically removed from happy lambs at the top of the list of their priorities. Give a man a fish, teach a man to fish and all that.
Exactly, if someone doesnt even have a vague understanding of how cooking actually works (one of them had trouble turning on their own hob) then the budget issue is somewhat secondary.
We will pay for this one way or another, either we put the investment in to try and help them, or we pay for it through increased NHS bills.
If they seriously are that desperate there's MUCH cheaper alternatives than meat in that case! Vegetables, pulses, even vegetarian convenience foods are cheaper than even the value meat.
How many of them buy a bag of quorn mince, or a pack of beanfeast (seriously cheap) to eek out mince? Not many I doubt. We didn't have a lot when I was younger so my mum used to use porridge oats to make mince go further, we used to eat liver and rabbit because it was cheaper. And we didn't eat meat for every meal purely because WE COULDN'T AFFORD IT. We ate meat from local butchers, not mass produced farms, and it was eeked it out to make it last. But it wasn't a problem
And yeah I do know what it's like to not be able to afford what I want in the supermarket. Last year my essential outgoings were the same as my wage (sometimes more) so I had NOTHING to spare. As I said before, we make less than £30 easily last a week for two people for all three meals a day and we eat comfortably, I could reduce that further if I had to and still eat healthily. It really does sound like excuses to me
I think I was a little black and white earlier in my arguments. My main problem is with chickens, as a lot of people have pointed out cows and sheep live a fairly good life out in the fields - I know this is true and don't really have a problem with that. There's still problems with pig farming from what I'm aware with some of the enclosures beings too small, but agreed it's not comparable to chicken farming (which is where my anger is mainly directed).
So basically - people can't cook, so have to buy more expensive convenience foods, so their money doesn't stretch as far, so have to buy meat at the cheapest price they can
I still think it's a bit of an excuse. You can learn how to cook, any eejit can follow a recipe. I left home 5 years ago not knowing how to cook a thing and I make pretty much all my meals from scratch. I spend less than half an hour in the kitchen after work
And again, if people really are desperate then why the hell aren't they learning how to cook! It's really not rocket science, a baked potato in the oven, pasta with a jar of sauce, a stir fry is one of the simplest and quickest meals available. I learned pretty quick when I moved out that if I could learn to make a meal with the basic ingredients then I could live a lot cheaper
But the thing it really comes down to is are people actually bothered? When cheap meat is available, no they're not. They're not bothered about learning how to cook when you can buy cheap processed food, the cost to the animal just doesn't matter. There's ways around it but people don't want to know. I think it's sad
But this discussion has got a bit sidetracked (sorry!) and we're onto a different debate now!
Simple answer is that many people are lazy. Many are also just plain dumb. Combine the two, and well, that probably covers half of the UK population now...