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Sterilise young girls, says Daily Mail columnist

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To be fair until The Council of Trent decreed in 1563 that marriages should be celebrated in the presence of a priest and at least two witnesses my understanding was that marriage was a far more casual thing in Christendom anyway.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It being disapproved upon doesn't mean that it didn't go on.

    They didn't have the levels of teen pregnancy and STDs that we have now in the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s or 80s, though, did they?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Runnymede wrote: »
    They didn't have the levels of teen pregnancy and STDs that we have now in the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s or 80s, though, did they?

    didn't they?

    i thought stds were rife but probably not identifiable as stds..a hell of a lot of people died. i'll try google

    edit: ah good ole' syphiliis!!

    source: http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/guide19/part10.html
    With the rise in prostitution, there's an increase in gonorrhoea and syphilis. Specialised asylums for treating STIs ? called 'lock hospitals' ? serve to punish and separate sufferers from the general public. Medical treatments are quite primitive and also extremely painful.

    In the 1850s, about half the outpatients in the main London hospitals are suffering from STIs, mainly the killer syphilis. To deal with the problem, Parliament passes the first of several Contagious Diseases Acts in 1864. These are intended to regulate prostitution in six garrison towns and ports, where it is assumed that soldiers and sailors need prostitutes. Any women found within a certain radius of garrison areas can be arrested and physically examined to see if she has an STI.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    on that note, syphallis is making a come back, be careful folks.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    didn't they?

    i thought stds were rife but probably not identifiable as stds..a hell of a lot of people died. i'll try google

    edit: ah good ole' syphiliis!!

    source: http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/guide19/part10.html
    With the rise in prostitution, there's an increase in gonorrhoea and syphilis. Specialised asylums for treating STIs ? called 'lock hospitals' ? serve to punish and separate sufferers from the general public. Medical treatments are quite primitive and also extremely painful.

    In the 1850s, about half the outpatients in the main London hospitals are suffering from STIs, mainly the killer syphilis. To deal with the problem, Parliament passes the first of several Contagious Diseases Acts in 1864. These are intended to regulate prostitution in six garrison towns and ports, where it is assumed that soldiers and sailors need prostitutes. Any women found within a certain radius of garrison areas can be arrested and physically examined to see if she has an STI.

    I meant from the 1920s-1980s though.

    http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/article.asp?ID=535&Pos=1&ColRank=2&Rank=384

    Page 37 gives figures for 'Girls having first intercource before 16 years of age, by year of birth' from 1931-73. Page 38 says: 'Only 1 per cent of girls born in 1931 had first intercourse before age 16, rising to 5 per cent for those born in the 1950s, and continuing to increase, reaching 24 per cent for women born in 1974'.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That'd be girls admitting they had intercourse before then, not the actual levels :p
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That'd be girls admitting they had intercourse before then, not the actual levels :p

    But the trend is clear - there will be some lying (more under 16's had sex in 30's than admit and now there's probably under 16 virgins bragging how they shagged), but not enough to suggest that sexual activity was the same in 1930 as now
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There is logic in it and i'm sure if we had it already it would be accepted, but no, no, no and no i don't like the idea, for reasons i haven't even thought of yet but if i tried i know i could!


    My main thoguht is the damage it would bring to the hormone balance of young teenagers, even if the GPs say "there's nothing to worry about", there will always be a change in the body so it's full of crap!

    On the other hand though, i wouldn't mind a long term sterilization, until i'm ready to have kids.



    As a collegue in work has just said "the money would be better spent on sex education".

    There will be changes in biochemistry yes, but typically contraceptive stuff isn't crap' or artificial chemicals, just some naturally occurring hormone to fool the body into thinking it's not pregnant. Or something like that...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Runnymede wrote: »
    They didn't have the levels of teen pregnancy and STDs that we have now in the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s or 80s, though, did they?
    Maybe not in the 20th (and arguably the 19th) centuries, but historically many women have had children at a young age; married or otherwise.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    My mum was pregnant in her teenage years, as was her mum, and so was my dad's mum. I don't think it was exceptionally unusual.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To be frank, China's attempts to state control population growth led to 1000's of children tied down being left to starve to death in empty rooms... Once you start taking compulsive and repressive measures to deal with social problems I can't help feeling that a government has entirely lost its way.

    Somethings really are a slippery slope and where they end nobody knows. If anyone needs a reminder you can watch The Dying Room online.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Maybe not in the 20th (and arguably the 19th) centuries, but historically many women have had children at a young age; married or otherwise.

    Yep. Most historical religious characters would be considered a paedophile by today's standards. Muhammed, Joseph, etc. Even the most recent, Joseph Smith (Mormons) married a 14 year old, and I think the scandal wasn't about her age, it was that he was already married. Didn't Elvis have a relationship with an underage girl (by todays standards) too? But the ancient Greeks, Romans and Egyptians weren't against sex for pleasure. The Egyptians invented the condom, and I'm led to believe that the Greeks and Romans promoted sexual relationships between men in the army (the idea being that it creates a stronger bond between soldiers). In fact, I suspect that a lot of the outrage about teenage sex nowadays actually stems from a disapproval of sex outside of marriage, rather than the idea of a 16 year old having children.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Think you mean Jerry Lee Lewis rather than Elvis?

    Anyway it's worth remembering that history has never had one attitude to sex. For every period of rule by a Nero promoting seantors wives having sex in public with slaves there's a period of rule by a Vespasian or Tiberius demanding tighter controls and more restrictive moral practices and at times draconian measures.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    lots of women had children younger - but then many of them might be dead by their late thirties (or younger)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yeah it was Jerry Lee Lewis, he married a 13 year old and that effectively ended his career as everyone was horrified.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote: »
    Anyway it's worth remembering that history has never had one attitude to sex. For every period of rule by a Nero promoting seantors wives having sex in public with slaves there's a period of rule by a Vespasian or Tiberius demanding tighter controls and more restrictive moral practices and at times draconian measures.

    And even then a lot of the stories about the sexual proclivities of Roman Emperors were told by there detractors. The stories about Nero were often told by to show how degenerate he was, and as a reason why it was alright to depose him.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Good old Tacitus ;)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote: »
    Think you mean Jerry Lee Lewis rather than Elvis?

    Nope. Elvis met his first wife when she was 14, and they had to hide it from the media apparently. I remember watching a documentary on it. They definitely had a relationship when she was that age, but obviously I don't know if anything happened.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I didn't know that, i totally agree with you though. I just thought it might have more relevance to somewhere like china.

    Oh yeah, don't worry - no way I thought you'd be agreeing with anything like that
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote: »
    To be frank, China's attempts to state control population growth led to 1000's of children tied down being left to starve to death in empty rooms... Once you start taking compulsive and repressive measures to deal with social problems I can't help feeling that a government has entirely lost its way.

    Somethings really are a slippery slope and where they end nobody knows. If anyone needs a reminder you can watch The Dying Room online.

    That's so shocking.
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    BlackArab wrote: »
    Now I wonder what the Daily Mail would say if someone suggested free contraception and morning after pills for girls 12 and over...:chin:

    I can but feel they'd come up with some sort of reason not to be happy.

    I daresay some Mail readers would just publically flog those who got pregnant at a young age.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote: »
    To be fair until The Council of Trent decreed in 1563 that marriages should be celebrated in the presence of a priest and at least two witnesses my understanding was that marriage was a far more casual thing in Christendom anyway.

    The Council of Trent was a Catholic Council, by that time England was mostly Protestant anyway.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yeah got me there - but whilst the Protestants themselves were certainly responsible for the idea of a marriage as a secular event in Europe following the Reformation it was the Catholic perspective that prevaled until recent times, especially in the UK.

    Luther and Calvin may have had the view that '[marriage was] a worldly thing... that belongs to the realm of government' but it's clearly the idea of a religious and divine covenant that has the upper hand until relatively recently in the UK. So despite the gap beween the Marriage Ordinance of Geneva and the Restoration (1546 - 1660) I still see the Council of Trent's decree as a valid starting point for at least the modern religious view of marriage.

    Previous to that for the vast majority marriage was an economic institution set in the context of almost unimaginably harsh lives.

    But anyway, getting more than a little off the main topic ;)
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