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Gay Sheep
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Sorry about the source, I nicked it from a debate on another message board. I know very few of you are interested in the animal rights issues here, but think about the human rights side...
If this experiment is true, wouldn't it be a cause to worry?
Say for example they find a way to fix homosexuality in sheep, then what?
Will the LGBT community be further maginalised? Will we be pressurised in to getting treatment to "cure" ourselves? Will decades of LGBT activism go down the drain because we find out it's some sort of defect?
If this experiment is true, wouldn't it be a cause to worry?
Say for example they find a way to fix homosexuality in sheep, then what?
Will the LGBT community be further maginalised? Will we be pressurised in to getting treatment to "cure" ourselves? Will decades of LGBT activism go down the drain because we find out it's some sort of defect?
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I don't see anything wrong with people being gay - but these days we can get a sex change - so why not a sexuaity change too?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/animalrights/story/0,,1989526,00.html
Well they're certainly less happy at least until a Great American Jackalope arrives
, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoR0Mnv03oc
But yea, doesn't matter insomuch that most of what we do is unnatural. We have sex for fun. Hell, we buy bits of plastic off the internet to simulate having sex, I'm sure evolution didn't see that one coming. However when the genetic arguments come up, if it is born into people, then I can't say that it's 'normal' because it's obviously not how humans are supposed to work. Not that anyone is especially normal, I don't know how to put across what I'm saying without some people getting annoyed.
Ah they're going to anyway, what the hell, call me a queer basher go on!
eta: just thought, maybe if I say this it will make more sense. Why does a gay person need to justify why they're gay? Anymore than I need to justify the fact I like motorbikes, there is no law against it, some people hate bikers, but I don't have to prove myself for htem. I can see in a different cultural climate then homosexuals need to 'band together' to get political change and look for each other, but I think that gays don't get such a hard time of it these days. Of course it's never perfect, but it's not exclusive to homosexuals, there are always those out to pick on someone.
We've arrived at a wonderful point in time where you can be openly gay, go out to gay clubs, kiss other gays in the street, without being lynched. So people should enjoy it, rather than say making sure they have everyones approval first. Not pointing to everyone in this thread, just whenever this argument comes about theres always some like that. It's the same for racism too, and women. Grrr, someone I know takes it far too far with women.
Queer Basher!
I can take your argument and simply change it a little... and make you lose.
Man and Women have sex to procreate - the only reason, if these good Christians are to be believed, but different point - but sex for pleasure is a different matter. If sex between a man a man provides pleasure , and sex for pleasure alone is not procreation - there is nothing not natural about that. Sex with both women and men provides pleasure for both sexes. It is a different matter from procreation entirley.
As long as it is consenting, it is probably, in all fairness, natural. It happened through evolution, didn't it?
The anus, by comparison, is for defecating. I myself can think of several modifications that would make it better for sex. Self lubricating and thicker colon wall to prevent tearing, for example. But we've improvised, so it's fine. Just like those birds that improvised with bread to catch fish (how cool ). But it was never hardcoded into our design to bum each other , just as those birds were never coded to find bread. What is bread to a bird??
No, that is not the only purpose of sex.
Evolution doesn't "design" stuff.
Can you explain how, if something is genetic, that it isn't "normal"?
Surely genetics is part of evolution and part of our natural make up just as much a blue eyes are?
... because homophobes keep telling them that they are not "normal"?
You are, of course, talking from a point of complete ignorance? Do you think it's "not a hard time" to have people, like you, forever saying that you are abnormal? Of facing discrimination when you book into hotels? Or knowing that there are some states in the US where you will be jailed for having sex with your chosen partner? Or being killed in some nations just for "being" homosexual?
Just stared at, tutted at, spat at...
Procreation is a purpose of life though and sex plays a major part of that.
And as Blagsta mentioned - evolution is accident not design, things just happen to happen, they aren't aimed at perfect reproduction, what wins out just happens to work better than the other alternatives.
Gay sex has been prevelant in human society for thousands of years as well, no one disputes that fact. Procreation is a vital part of life, sure there are anomolies here and there but that shouldn't overshadow what's at stake here. In modern days' other pressures like work mean families are planned later and are not seen as important, also attitudes towards sex have changed but it still doesn't mean the main aspect to sex is to procreate. If it was just for pleasure then we wouldn't have sperm or eggs. Simple as.
If you think sex is mostly about procreation, your g/f must be disappointed!
Nope, I said procreation is a purpose of life and sex is a major part of this. I didn't say sex can't be used for other purposes.
Of course procreation is a major part of sex. However it is not the only purpose.
Would you agree that is the primary / main purpose though? When creatures were evolving, sex 'developed' in order to survive and procreate.
Well, not as such, but it shapes it. We evolve and change by trial and error - I don't know how to articulate it - I understand the concept of evolution, in fact I've read a lot on Darwin's theories, so either you've assumed I wasn't aware, or are trying to pick me up on an otherwise insignificant argument?
Well, like Jim says, evolution is survival of the fittest by accident, and I think of the 'normal' as a perfect being that lives in complete efficiency / effectiveness in it's environment. Every single living thing is above / below this normal, with deviations in certain areas. Being predisposed to heterosexual behaviour brings you closer to an 'ultimate' point of evolution, homosexual further away, simply because in a homosexual creature, the chances of them procreating is far far less.
We evolve by our genes mutating and changing randomly (or perhaps not so? maybe one day I'll do research into that ), so that goes without saying. Homosexuality is just as usual (well not so, but is a change equivilent to) blue eyes, however those with blue eyes don't have a significant disadvantage in their environment (however lighter pigmented eyes mean you're more sensitive to light apparently, so better in areas of the world with less light?), however homosexuality will not make the creature 'survive more effectively', in fact any purely homosexual creature will be doomed to extinction, which is why 95% of the population (off the top of my head, I've head some people saying 14% of the population is gay, but I think that's an exaggeration) is heterosexual. Inherited behaviours / desires through genes from their parents.
By normal, I don't mean socially unacceptable, I mean as an example of the species that will survive effectively in it's environment. I think this is where the main confusion comes from. I'm not making an emotional argument, I am purely looking at the science of it, that homosexuality isn't what most humans evolve towards, it is a random mutation that occurs. Which has no bearing on the quality of character of a homosexual person whatsoever.
But how many homosexuals are travelling to Iran for their valentines holiday? I think you are trying to exaggerate the discrimination faced by homosexuals. Of course it occurs, but by all accounts there's nothing that stops your average gay person in the UK from enjoying their life. Discrimination in hotels is the exception not the rule, and it's just because people get so worked up over it that it's made into a big deal.
Hmm. I can't vouch for every gay person in the world, but in my experience when I've been out and seen guys or girls kissing nobody pays them much notice - not anymore than if it was a girl and a guy. Have you noticed that people do spit, tutt and stare then?
Well it's natural in that random variables mean people are gay, but as my point earlier, homosexual creatures would not reproduce or propogate their species, and hence would 'die out'. Again in my original post, I said that it doesn't make much difference to our society, because the sociological aspects are a different branch from the biological ones, and gay people I'm sure are more concerned with equal rights than the continued survival of the 'gay race'. Taking this into consideration though, I think - relatively speaking - gay people in the year 2007 have it pretty good.
There will always be discrimination, but at least in the UK that is the minority now rather than mainstream, along with racism. We've come a long way. Of course bigotry against homosexuals (I dislike the term homophobia as it always reads to me as a phobia of gays, which is different altogether) is reprehensible, but I've noticed a fair amount that people make up for this by trying to over-compensate.
As an example, my friend put it like this:
Whereas I thought cheating was cheating, whether you're gay or not.