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That said citing public opinion is a mugs game - if you support something which is also supported by the majority they claim that its the will of the people. Of course if you don't support something which the majority to support you complain about populism...
You don't need it. A majority is enough.
My point is just because 1m people march, for all their different reasons (remember some would have been Saddam supporters, some just hate Bush, some hate all wars and some just this one) doesn't mean that the majority of the population were against the war.
Don't forget the Socialists in there and the Freedom for Pakistan movement. Large numbers of both of those parties, were in that march, nowt to do with the war.
http://www.ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/issues/iraq/
In fact, there wasn't a single person there I saw who said or carried a placared that indicated in any way whatsoever they supported Saddam. That is one of the idiotic simplistic accusations you get across all the time "you don't support the war so you must be a Saddam supporter". Yawn x 94,000,000
Did you really expect to? Be serious, even in that crowd they would have been ostracised (I suspect), doesn't mean that there weren't sympathisers there.
I think you get my general point (and it wasn't that marchers were all Saddam supporters), more that the march proved nothing more than the fact that approx 1m were anti-this war.
And just because you disagree with something your government does does not mean you think it sucks or are going "ya boo" at it. Don't be patronisng.
I'm not. A hell of a lot of people can't give any answer that isn't "boo ya the government sucks" and nothing more. Hence why I said it.
I hhave real reasons for my war support, but there is no point writing them here coz it wont do anything. i already did a post on about the war protest march and some1 quoted me as saying they were all Saddam supporters, which I never even inferred.
So whats the point?
and leats in my posts I aint making any cooments on yourself, wheer as you seem to be quite happpy to try and have a go, so take your own advice me thinks.
Where did I say they supported Saddam? Thats right I didn't.
you can't have been there or else you would have seen the quite literally tons of placareds that had "Socialist Worder" labels on them and "Freedom for Palistian" on them as well.
So in some areas there were lots of placards, in others very few, and the press photographs certainly focused on those areas with lots. And those placards are handed out for free, to everyone who wants them. That's why you see many Socialist worker placards at most events, as opposed to Class War or Worker's Revolutionary Party, etc.
But the point remains, if someone says there were at an event it's worth bearing in mind what they say about it - rather than assuming they weren't.
And the issue isn't really over at the moment Doomsday - people still argue about the reasons for the Roman Empires invasion of Greek colonies in 100BC, the debates around Iraq have barely begun.
On the other hand - everyone else should remember that people are allowed to believe in the war, and are entitled to support it. People should discuss and debate other's opinions, but they are valid. However, Doomsday, your replies seem equally as dismissive and mocking as Moonrat's and Aladdin's - so let's all get along people....
What's wrong with 'Freedom for Palestine' incidentally?
Now that would make a good placard slogan.
And one I think I would give my support to.
Nothing, except its not relevant to an war in Iraq march. Its like going on a march to save the NHS and then carrying placards calling for the legalisation of drugs. You may believe in both, but they're not linked...
The Palestinians were used as an excuse to salve the consciences of a few marchers (better to claim that a march to stop the war in Iraq would save the Palestinians than to admit the reality of stopping the war in Iraq would do fuck all for the Palestinians but would allow Saddam to remain in power)
The immense majority of marchers didn't have 'Freedom for Palestine' placards. What do you think their reasons for marching were?
Especially since every single prediction made by the protesters has sadly come to pass and they have been vindicated in their protests a 100 times over.
Unilateralism? You must not have heard of NATO. Have you studied any history before Bush came into power... Do you have any understanding of what was going on in the world.
Are you celebrating terrorist attacks or saying their wrong.
Do you understand the meaning of the word few.
And I'm sure they were marching for many reasons ranging from the admirable to the despicable. The fact remains though that if they had suceeded Saddam would remain in power (and more likely more powerful than ever)
More by luck than anything else. Few predicted a guerilla war - the main predictions were an extremely bloody conventional war (Stalingrad was mentioned more than once). And anti-war protesters are themselves are prolonging it - if those planting bombs in markets were convinced that the US/UK were in for the long haul it would be a major blow for them. Its the 'one more push' mentality which keeps terrorists going and whilst they see people marching in support of them (for thats in effect what the anti-war crowd are doing whatever there motives) they'll think that a few more dead and the coalition will leave Iraq to their tender mercies.
Face it, there is no moral high ground. The only way to remain morally pure is to hide in a cave in a mountain with your eyes and ears covered.
And if you really believe the US's policy on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has no bearing in the deep distrust of America that's prevalent throughout much of the Arab and Muslim worlds and the terrorist attacks it has itself found the target of, it would seem that it is you who has zero understanding of what goes on in the world.
Of course terrorist attacks are wrong. I am merely pointing out that every action has a reaction, and that far from being prompted by "envy" or any other such silly claims, most terrorist attacks on US interests are fuelled by its hypocritical, unjust and aggressive foreign policy and the anger and despair they bring up to literally hundreds of millions of people across the planet.
In view of how things have gone since his removal, I'm pretty sure the families of the 650,000 innocent Iraqis killed and the millions more living in a sectarian hellhole a hundred trillion times worse than life under Saddam would tell you that wasn't such a bad thing.
Actually most anti-war protesters predicted most of what has happened since the invasion:
- we told you there were no WMDs
- we told you the US and Britain were lying about Saddam's attack capabilities
- we told you there was no threat to others
- we told you there were no links to terrorism
- we told you the war would see unprecedented levels of anger, unrest and conflict in the Middle East and indeed the rest of the world
- we told you the invasion was most likely going to lead to a power vacuum and infighting between the many factions and ethnic groups that make up Iraq
- we told you the then secular Iraq was likely to descend into a Sharia Law muslim nation and that women's rights would go out of the window
And look what has just happened...
Some positions are more moral than others. People protesting against an unjustified and crazy war that has made matters worse are in infinitely higher moral ground than those who supported the war- the immense majority of which, of course, who didn't give a shit about the plight of the Iraqi people when he was a chum of the West.
Exactly, well maybe not about legalisation of drugs but thats what I meant.
Jim V, Moonrat etc etc.
I didnt call anyone a liar.
However some1 did say that I said that all the people at the march were Saddam supporters, which I never said.
The point is, some people have agenda's and are not above using some popular, fashaionable, for the moment movement to push their own agenda's.
Hence the Socialists and the Freedom for Palestine movement.
So socialists etc can't be anti-war? Sorry, what?
yeha they can, but are they really or are the pushing their cause and band wagon jumping?
People always go on about not accpeting what the government says is truth, yet they will accept anything else said by anyone else without question.
I still don't understand your point. Socialists are probably going to be against a war fought in the name of capitalism, so its hardly "band wagon jumping" is it? Leaving aside the fact that the anti-war demos were actually organised by a socialist organisation. Similarly, people involved in a Freedom for Palestine campaign are also probably giong to be against further oppression in the middle east.
and anyone that says anything against the anti-war movement or says something in support of th ewar or government they get jumped on so its pointless posting on these threads about it so have fun.
*shrugs*
It's interesting to hear why people are still pro-war, but saying things like "it isn't as simple as that" doesn't really benefit your arguement.
These boards are for debate, whatever your view you're entitled to it. But what's the use of saying there's "no point" in writing your opinion on a topic? That's what these boards are for.
"Don't forget the Socialists in there and the Freedom for Pakistan movement. Large numbers of both of those parties, were in that march, now to do with the war."
How do you know "the Socialists" weren't protesting against the war? Can't a socialist be against the war (which is the point Blagsta was making earlier but you missed)?
I aint wasting my time on it.
you have a point moon rat, why have the boards if u can't debate on them. U can't. I seen it, every pro war person gets jumped on so why get the hassle.
Anti-war people aren't gonna change their opinion so why bother?
and as I said , yes they can be, but are they? My point is everyone questions the governments motives and things they say but no 1 doubts that other political groups say?
its a double standard.
I already explained this clearly and didnt miss any points.
when you make rolling eye posts moon rat, it is against the person really.
but since I am being jumped on here, I am leaving it coz I dont want the hassle. I been on sites like that b4 and its not worth it.
Rough translation: I don't have an argument.