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Should people be entitled to private political beliefs?

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    If she is sacked then every other person in the country who is a member of a political party should also be sacked. If she was using her position to promote NewLabour she'd be given a knighthood.

    Indeed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote:
    Yeah and the arguement for a long time has always been that the French left is actually pretty right-wing

    Has it? New Labour makes Chirac (a French conservative) look economically left wing. And economically the French left certainly isn't right wing.
    Jim V wrote:
    not to mention the basic level of racism and oppression that has exsisted in France (and leads to sporadic and hopeless violence from minorities in France).

    And racism certainly isn't an exclusively right wing thing. Huey Long, countless examples in the Soviet Union and more recently the 'Respect' Party come to mind.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It is surely much more useful to also distinguish between authoritarian and libertarian as the political compass does.
    I think that the right wing often gets unfairly tagged with being the authoritarian of the two (a negative in my opinion). I mean concepts such as completely free trade are anything but.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Doomsday wrote:
    why is it, when pople talk about "extremist views" its always the "right" thats mentioned?

    There can be extremists on the left you know!

    and you know, the BNP aren't even a far right party, they are a left wing party with one far right policy and thats it. They always get it wrong on tv and the papers, its so annoying.

    The right isn't always a bad place is all I am saying and no I aint a far right believer either.
    The BNP want capital punishment, national service, removal of all immigrants and until 2004 the recriminalisation of homosexuality.

    Hardly left wing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote:
    Yeah and the arguement for a long time has always been that the French left is actually pretty right-wing, not to mention the basic level of racism and oppression that has exsisted in France (and leads to sporadic and hopeless violence from minorities in France).

    I think all the example would prove is that the French left is pretty right-wing - I can't honestly believe you've read the BNP manifesto and believe it's anything other than right wing - that's what it is, that's what the evidence shows, that's what they claim themselves - how can it be anything else?

    Doesn't all this proove is that left and right wing are slightly nebulous terms. They after all originated in France shortly after the Revolution, with the right wing being the moderates and the left wing being those who wanted to guillotine those who disagreed with them.

    The BNP manifesto is a mixture of left and right wing policies

    Some quotes from the BNP manifesto (I haven't linked to it, but its easy to google).
    We are wholly committed to a free, fully funded National Health Service for all British citizens. Contrary to popular political and ‘right-wing' myth, the British NHS is actually very good value for money – the problem is that we do not put enough money into ‘front-end' staff. The key reason that our health service is in many ways inferior to those of other leading industrial nations is that we spend less on it that they do.
    It is clear that the American system of privatised health care is extremely wasteful in terms of the cost of fragmented administration and paying for a vast system of private health insurance companies.

    I'm not sure that's an analysis which would find much support in laissez faire circles.
    From July 2005, for instance, Europe's largest media company, the German firm Bertelsmann AG, is to run the council administration of the East Riding of Yorkshire. 500 council employees, providing services to some 350,000 inhabitants, will henceforth be employed and directed not by elected representatives of the people, but by a profit-hungry multi-national company.

    That wouldn't look out of place in many left wing parties manifesto's either.
    We will not permit the growing of GM crops.

    I'm sure many 'left-wingers' wouldn't disagree with that either...

    Now I'm not arguing the BNP is a left-wing party. Its a populist party which appeals to people's lowest instincts, whether that is curbing immigration, getting something for nothing or the idea that there is a simple solution to complex problems which is being concealed by some mystical elite.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    Most people (including many in power) have little understanding of the effects that the policies they support will have.

    I share your experience.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote:
    Always worrying when people start to use the term 'they' to defend their viewpoints.

    Or "WE" , "US" and "OUR"
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The BNP want capital punishment, national service, removal of all immigrants and until 2004 the recriminalisation of homosexuality.

    Hardly left wing.

    :confused:

    Is Castro not left wing then? Homosexuality was outlawed after the revolution and gays/lesbians imprisoned.

    How is national service right wing exactly? North Korea, Brazil and China don't have 'right wing' governments. (Although, NK and China certainly have authoritarian governments). Although, national service isn't automatically authoritarian, Germany and Finland have it but are not particularly so...Indeed both are less so than Britain which doesn't have it.

    Capital punishment isn't left wing? Do Cuba, China the Soviet Union or North Korea ring a bell? Capital punishment isn't a left/right thing. Is RMT union leader Bob Crow not left wing? He supports the death penalty...

    Flashman's Ghost's post seems pretty accurate...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :confused:

    Is Castro not left wing then? Homosexuality was outlawed after the revolution and gays/lesbians imprisoned.

    How is national service right wing exactly? North Korea, Brazil and China don't have 'right wing' governments. (Although, NK and China certainly have authoritarian governments). Although, national service isn't automatically authoritarian, Germany and Finland have it but are not particularly so...Indeed both are less so than Britain which doesn't have it.

    Capital punishment isn't left wing? Do Cuba, China the Soviet Union or North Korea ring a bell? Capital punishment isn't a left/right thing. Is RMT union leader Bob Crow not left wing? He supports the death penalty...

    Flashman's Ghost's post seems pretty accurate...
    There's the social left wing and the economic left wing. Of course what is left or right wing is completely relative to a society's culture.

    Though Flashman's Ghost's idea that the BNP is a 'populist' party, does that mean that The Sun newspaper is neither left wing or right wing?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The overwhelming, central pillar policies of the BNP, its very reason for existence, are fascist, racist, far-right policies.

    Of course the BNP is a fucking far right party.

    Can't believe we're even discussing this.

    Next I'll hear the Dutch Paedophile Party that formed last year is a left wing or social welfare party because they promised free rail travel as well... :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think that the right wing often gets unfairly tagged with being the authoritarian of the two (a negative in my opinion). I mean concepts such as completely free trade are anything but.

    This is where we have to distinguish between positive and negative freedoms. The libertarian right are advocates of merely negative freedoms (freedom from). However the libertarian left advocate both postive and negative freedoms (freedom from and freedom to).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Doesn't all this proove is that left and right wing are slightly nebulous terms. They after all originated in France shortly after the Revolution, with the right wing being the moderates and the left wing being those who wanted to guillotine those who disagreed with them.

    The BNP manifesto is a mixture of left and right wing policies

    Some quotes from the BNP manifesto (I haven't linked to it, but its easy to google).





    I'm not sure that's an analysis which would find much support in laissez faire circles.



    That wouldn't look out of place in many left wing parties manifesto's either.



    I'm sure many 'left-wingers' wouldn't disagree with that either...

    Now I'm not arguing the BNP is a left-wing party. Its a populist party which appeals to people's lowest instincts, whether that is curbing immigration, getting something for nothing or the idea that there is a simple solution to complex problems which is being concealed by some mystical elite.


    Except you're missing out one vital thing - left wing arguments always come from a position of class. The BNP's arguments don't - they come from a position of nationalism and race. They may be arguing for an NHS - but it is an NHS purely for people of one nation or one race - it is not an NHS for all.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Except you're missing out one vital thing - left wing arguments always come from a position of class. The BNP's arguments don't - they come from a position of nationalism and race. They may be arguing for an NHS - but it is an NHS purely for people of one nation or one race - it is not an NHS for all.

    That's probably true to an extent, but then lots of people come to the same position without the same analysis of how they got there. Chances are you could find yourself talking to an extreme right winger and if you didn't dig to deep you'd find that they have the same views as you on many issues
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    They may have some similar views - however it would only be surface for the reasons already stated. Dig deep and the differences would be glaringly apparent.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru

    I'm sorry Dis, but what's strange about it. The only difference between the far left and far right is the name.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm sorry Dis, but what's strange about it. The only difference between the far left and far right is the name.

    Well I don't know much about these anti-fascists but I just find it a bit strange that they're behaving like fascists themselves.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh come on; I hate to be harsh but you're brighter than that...

    1939 people like you and me would be up aginst the Nazis, the hard left wouldn't have been...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    I work for the Labour Government - my private views don't always accord with the views of that Government. Should I be sacked?

    Personally I hope she sues the Guardian and wins.

    How is it the Guardians fault?

    It is the fault of people who, are being just as intollerant as the BNP against her. Sure she's a Fascist, but that doesn't mean you have go out and be just as bad as the Fascists and be hateful against them. Lowering oneself to thier level and all.

    The Guardian has done nothing wrong. The Far Right groups in the UK regularly publish the address, contact details, and pretty much everything about left-wing politicaisn on thier websites. This. The Guardian didn't even do THAT much.

    Only differnece between far left and far right is name?:lol: I am sorry, what planet are you on? Really? If you can't see a difference between Communism and Fascism, I really question your judgement.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well I don't know much about these anti-fascists but I just find it a bit strange that they're behaving like fascists themselves.

    They may be behaving in a counterproductive way, but they're hardly behaving like fascists.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm sorry Dis, but what's strange about it. The only difference between the far left and far right is the name.

    The only people who say this sort of thing are the politically uneducated.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh come on; I hate to be harsh but you're brighter than that...

    1939 people like you and me would be up aginst the Nazis, the hard left wouldn't have been...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact

    I guess you never heard of the Battle of Cable Street then, or the International Brigades.

    Oh and putting Stalin in the same category as all the left just further demonstrates your political ignorance.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    FWIW, there are plenty of people on the left who view the demo at the ballet as counterproductive.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote:
    Always worrying when people start to use the term 'they' to defend their viewpoints. As to the BNP not being right-wing their last manifestio claimed -

    *Low taxes
    *Shrink bureaucracy
    *End 'trendy' failure in teaching -

    'BNP councillors will campaign to end, or oppose the introduction of , the teaching of Asian languages to classes containing any native British children'

    - 'We will lead a grass-roots campaign to give teachers back the right to smack disruptive pupils'

    *Abolish spending on Politically Correct projects designed to favour pet minorities

    Very left wing
    I think the concept of left and right isn't a straight line, but more of a circle. There comes a point where the extreme authoritarian left meet the extreme authoritarian right coming the other way, just the same as there is some crossover between the moderate labour and conservative parties.
    As to the point here the issue is the Race Relations Act of 2000. All organisations that recieve public funding are required to promote good race relations.
    Which is all well and good for organisations in the cities, but it makes it damned difficult for charities in rural areas, where there are no ethnic minorities, to get funding. :banghead: :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think the concept of left and right isn't a straight line, but more of a circle. There comes a point where the extreme authoritarian left meet the extreme authoritarian right coming the other way, just the same as there is some crossover between the moderate labour and conservative parties.

    No, not really. I'm certainly not defending Stalinist type lefties, but to assert that its the same as fascism is just not true.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote:
    - 'We will lead a grass-roots campaign to give teachers back the right to smack disruptive pupils'
    :eek: Please tell me this isn't true. I can't believe a supposedly developed nation can have politicians seriously proposing this. Btw, do they have much support?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Which is all well and good for organisations in the cities, but it makes it damned difficult for charities in rural areas, where there are no ethnic minorities, to get funding. :banghead: :rolleyes:

    Sorry if that came out wrong Captain - it doesn't mean you only get money for promoting race relations - it just means that anyone recieving public money isn't allowed to promote bad race relations, racism or hatred with the money - charities still recieve money for the many 1000's of other reasons from government not connected to race relations.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    They may be behaving in a counterproductive way, but they're hardly behaving like fascists.

    True. Picketing a venue because of the political views of a performer. Demanding a performer gets sacked because of their political views. Disrupting the performance because of the political views of the performer. Their behaviour is far worse than the fascist at the centre of this (the performer herself).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    True. Picketing a venue because of the political views of a performer. Demanding a performer gets sacked because of their political views. Disrupting the performance because of the political views of the performer. Their behaviour is far worse than the fascist at the centre of this (the performer herself).

    I tend to agree with you as it goes - this action was completely counterproductive and will probably play into the hands of the BNP.

    However my point was that you used the term "fascist" in an inaccurate manner. I wouldn't call Simone Clarke a fascist either - misguided and stupid yes. A fascist? Probably not.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    True. Picketing a venue because of the political views of a performer. Demanding a performer gets sacked because of their political views. Disrupting the performance because of the political views of the performer. Their behaviour is far worse than the fascist at the centre of this (the performer herself).

    i agree with you here too, people are entitled to their views, even if they dispicable as long as they don't use their position to broadcast their political alignment in a place where that kind of partisan behaviour isn't necessery (no matter what the party) - to me she wasn't using her position as a ballet dancer to promote the BNP so she's done sod all wrong

    just to add, the BNP may be a political party but tehre was an interesting article in the guardian about how the BNP may be acting like a regular party, but are making preparation in case of an economic/social catastrophy to push themselves (which if anyone has any history of far right parties would know, but this confirms it)
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