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Israel Q & A

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
I am acutely aware that my knowledge about Israel (and its historical conflicts) is rudimentary at best. I’ve tried scouting around for “beginners guide” style books and web-sites, but too little avail. I was wondering, as many people seem to be pretty clued-up on the middle-east, whether people wouldn’t mind imparting their knowledge on the subject. Ideally, I’d like to start off with a few questions and then let the thread grow organically from there on in.

The most prominent black holes in my knowledge as follows:

In what way is Israel distinct from Palestine?

When people talk about the “Arab” population of Israel (as opposed to the Jewish population) who are they referring to? Is just everyone who isn’t Jewish?

Do the historical conflicts in Israel track back to one event or period of time, or has the periodic migration of Jews to Israel, throughout recent history, caused the friction?
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Do the historical conflicts in Israel track back to one event or period of time, or has the periodic migration of Jews to Israel, throughout recent history, caused the friction?

    Well pretty much as long as there have been Jews, Muslims and Christians they've been killing each other over that really important bit of land.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As I understand it, Palestine was the original state back in the 1940s when israel was made by the UN. They are distinct through race (mainly) that is that Israel is mostly jewish, and palestine is mostly arab islamic.

    The current conflict is because of the creation of the israeli state out of palestine and stuff. But the region has always been war torn because of religious reasons mostly.

    ETA: Can we keep this thread to facts about the conflict rather than discussion of idealogy please? And while we're at it. What's the history behind the group hezbollah?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In what way is Israel distinct from Palestine?

    Not sure what you're trying to say, Israel is a country that was created on Palestinian land in 1947, I think that's the year anyway. Jews in Israel say they have some Biblical claim to the land that stretches back 4,000 years or some shit though as a counter claim to who owns the land.
    When people talk about the “Arab” population of Israel (as opposed to the Jewish population) who are they referring to? Is just everyone who isn’t Jewish?

    Is that a serious question? Arabs are Arabs, not non-Jews.
    Do the historical conflicts in Israel track back to one event or period of time, or has the periodic migration of Jews to Israel, throughout recent history, caused the friction?

    Since 1947 when Israel was created, there's been much land grabbing by Israel and well publicised acts of war on neighbouring countries that has caused friction.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    As I understand it, Palestine was the original state back in the 1940s when israel was made by the UN. They are distinct through race (mainly) that is that Israel is mostly jewish, and palestine is mostly arab islamic.

    The current conflict is because of the creation of the israeli state out of palestine and stuff. But the region has always been war torn because of religious reasons mostly.

    ETA: Can we keep this thread to facts about the conflict rather than discussion of idealogy please? And while we're at it. What's the history behind the group hezbollah?

    So Palestine became Israel? Or Israel is just one part of what used to be the state of Palestine?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turlough wrote:
    Is that a serious question? Arabs are Arabs, not non-Jews.

    Yes, it's serious.

    Answers.com gives the defintion as:
    Arabs, name originally applied to the Semitic peoples of the Arabian Peninsula. It now refers to those persons whose primary language is Arabic. They constitute most of the population of Algeria, Bahrain, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, the West Bank, and Yemen

    Grouping people together by the language they speak just struck me as an unusual method of indentification, was all.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I am acutely aware that my knowledge about Israel (and its historical conflicts) is rudimentary at best. I’ve tried scouting around for “beginners guide” style books and web-sites, but too little avail. I was wondering, as many people seem to be pretty clued-up on the middle-east, whether people wouldn’t mind imparting their knowledge on the subject. Ideally, I’d like to start off with a few questions and then let the thread grow organically from there on in.

    The most prominent black holes in my knowledge as follows:

    In what way is Israel distinct from Palestine?

    When people talk about the “Arab” population of Israel (as opposed to the Jewish population) who are they referring to? Is just everyone who isn’t Jewish?

    Do the historical conflicts in Israel track back to one event or period of time, or has the periodic migration of Jews to Israel, throughout recent history, caused the friction?

    Israel is distinct from Palestine in the way that the UN partition plan allowed the creation of Israel to take place in some of the region then known as Palestine. This creation took place on the 14th of May 1948 (not 47 as turlough claims).
    The term palestinian which is used when discussing the current conflict is a relatively new one to distinguish the non-Jewish population who do not have hold of blue pasports (Israeli pasports). Though it should be noted that Jews living in then Palestine before '48 were also covered by the term Palestinian, as everyone else living in the region.

    When talking about the arab population of Israel, it is the arabic muslim and christian population who stayed in Israel and got blue pasports. The arab Israeli population can be seen fighting for the IDF, diplomatically representing Israel, and also being a part of cultural life as reality shows on tv etc.

    And as others have said, the conflict has pretty much always existed - yet one could say that it all goes in waves and gets more heated than usually from time to time.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Damn, one year off! :p
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Dear Wendy wrote:
    Israel is distinct from Palestine in the way that the UN partition plan allowed the creation of Israel to take place in some of the region then known as Palestine. This creation took place on the 14th of May 1948 (not 47 as turlough claims).
    The term palestinian which is used when discussing the current conflict is a relatively new one to distinguish the non-Jewish population who do not have hold of blue pasports (Israeli pasports). Though it should be noted that Jews living in then Palestine before '48 were also covered by the term Palestinian, as everyone else living in the region.

    When talking about the arab population of Israel, it is the arabic muslim and christian population who stayed in Israel and got blue pasports. The arab Israeli population can be seen fighting for the IDF, diplomatically representing Israel, and also being a part of cultural life as reality shows on tv etc.

    And as others have said, the conflict has pretty much always existed - yet one could say that it all goes in waves and gets more heated than usually from time to time.

    Thanks for your reply! Things are starting to make more sense now.

    Just a few additional questions:

    What outside of Israel used to be Palestine?

    When you say “stayed in Israel”, do you mean when what was Palestine, became Israel?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru

    What outside of Israel used to be Palestine?

    When you say “stayed in Israel”, do you mean when what was Palestine, became Israel?

    West Bank, Gaza Strip.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Thanks for your reply! Things are starting to make more sense now.

    Just a few additional questions:

    What outside of Israel used to be Palestine?

    When you say “stayed in Israel”, do you mean when what was Palestine, became Israel?

    israel_hist_1973.jpg
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turlough wrote:
    West Bank, Gaza Strip.

    The West Bank being, internationally at least, regarded as not part of any country?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The West Bank being, internationally at least, regarded as not part of any country?

    Nope, self-governed but not a country per se.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's one of the palestinian bits.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Thanks for your reply! Things are starting to make more sense now.

    Just a few additional questions:

    What outside of Israel used to be Palestine?

    When you say “stayed in Israel”, do you mean when what was Palestine, became Israel?

    The British mandate of Palestine covered Israel, West bank, Gaza and Jordan (Transjordania).
    And yeah, the population that stayed under the independence war in 1948.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    It's one of the palestinian bits.

    Israel seems to have been lots of different areas of lands through out history!

    So, 1920 - 1948 the whole lot was Palestine. Then the Jewish people who have been migrating there in mass for quite some time, want a section of it to call their own?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    yeah, they were given it as a result of the holocaust.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In what way is Israel distinct from Palestine?

    Depends who you ask. Some people mean Palestine as some or all of the Occupied Territories under the Palestinian Authority. Others mean Palestine as the UN division in 1947 (which includes the Palestinian Authority land, as well as parts of Israel) and which never came into play. Others when they say Palestine mean Palestine as it was under the Ottoman Empire and British mandate (which includes all of modern day Israel).
    When people talk about the “Arab” population of Israel (as opposed to the Jewish population) who are they referring to? Is just everyone who isn’t Jewish?

    Most people would just mean the Arab population - not all of whom are Moslem

    CIA world fact book gives ethnic compisition
    Jewish 80.1% (Europe/America-born 32.1%, Israel-born 20.8%, Africa-born 14.6%, Asia-born 12.6%), non-Jewish 19.9% (mostly Arab) (1996 est.)

    and religion as

    Jewish 76.5%, Muslim 15.9%, Arab Christians 1.7%, other Christian 0.4%, Druze 1.6%, unspecified 3.9% (2003)

    https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html

    Do the historical conflicts in Israel track back to one event or period of time, or has the periodic migration of Jews to Israel, throughout recent history, caused the friction?

    Aah where to go back is political in itself. Probably the main catalyst was the number of Jews starting to emigrate from Europe in the late nineteenth century (following ill-treatment in Russia and Poland). Many Arabs saw their own culture being eroded by the newcomers and were hostile to them. The numbers increased during the 1930s and after 1945 for obvious reasons and the relationship between the Arabs and Jews worsened.

    It became obvious that there would need to be two states, the only problem being where the border would be.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I really appreciate everyone's time they've spent replying.

    It appears, at a cursory glance, that after its formation in 1948 Israel has busied itself trying to invade and take over as much of the region as possible. Is this a fair summation?

    It even appears to have been having a pop at Egypt as well!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It appears, at a cursory glance, that after its formation in 1948 Israel has busied itself trying to invade and take over as much of the region as possible. Is this a fair summation?

    This is where the arguing starts but yes, that's true.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I really appreciate everyone's time they've spent replying.

    It appears, at a cursory glance, that after its formation in 1948 Israel has busied itself trying to invade and take over as much of the region as possible. Is this a fair summation?

    It even appears to have been having a pop at Egypt as well!

    The other way to look at it is since its formation Israel has succesfully defended itself against several invasions from its neighbours (including Egypt, Syria and Jordan)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I really appreciate everyone's time they've spent replying.

    It appears, at a cursory glance, that after its formation in 1948 Israel has busied itself trying to invade and take over as much of the region as possible. Is this a fair summation?

    It even appears to have been having a pop at Egypt as well!

    Result of wars. Less than a day old Israel was attacked by the surrounding arabic armies, and this has been repeated from time to time.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    The other way to look at it is since its formation Israel has succesfully defended itself against several invasions from its neighbours (including Egypt, Syria and Jordan)

    According to the BBC link that Aladdin posted that wasn't the case though. It cites Israel as the aggressor.

    Is this where interpretation of events comes into play or are we still dealing with facts (as much as that's possible).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well this is where the fun begins. Israel claims it was going to be attacked in a few days so it pre-empted. The Arab nations deny they were going to attack and that it was just a show of force.

    Basically the first 19 posts in this thread deal with more or less accurate facts and depictions of the situation (though there is always more to the story, but it is a good rough synopsis). After that is when things can be interpreted in rather different ways.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    According to the BBC link that Aladdin posted that wasn't the case though. It cites Israel as the aggressor.

    Where is that?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Dear Wendy wrote:
    Where is that?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_israel_palestinians/maps/html/six_day_war.stm
    In a pre-emptive attack on Egypt that drew Syria and Jordan into a regional war in 1967, Israel made massive territorial gains capturing the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights and the Sinai Peninsula up to the Suez Canal.
    Israeli troops captured Egypt's Sinai peninsula during the 1956 British, French and Israeli military campaign in response to the nationalisation of the Suez Canal.

    Another question:

    What is the relationship between America and Israel? America, when mentioned, seem to be on the side of the Israelis in the current conflict. Is it ostensibly because of both countires facing terrorist threats?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What is the relationship between America and Israel? America, when mentioned, seem to be on the side of the Israelis in the current conflict. Is it ostensibly because of both countires facing terrorist threats?

    Nope, they've been bum chums since the creation of Israel. America was a leading player in it's creation.

    I think it's because there's an incredibly powerful Jewish Lobby in the Whitehouse, there are quite a few Jews high up in the current administration. Wolfowitz being the main one.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What is the relationship between America and Israel? America, when mentioned, seem to be on the side of the Israelis in the current conflict. Is it ostensibly because of both countires facing terrorist threats?

    Alongside the 'Jewish lobby' is a very large number of ordinary Christians who believe in the state of Israel and want it supported.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ahh... that question has been the subject of much debate.

    Nobody really knows but IMO is a combination of an extremely powerful Jewish lobby influencing politics and media in the US and America using Israel as a forward post in the Middle East to keep those pesky Arabs in check.

    Israel truly has the US under total control and submission, using it as a financial and weaponry supplier and for vetoing just about every UN resolution it doesn't like.

    Like bongbudda has indicated the Christian Right is very supportive of Israel, for reasons of their own.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Like bongbudda has indicated the Christian Right is very supportive of Israel, for reasons of their own.

    I dont think it is just the so called 'christian right' which is real numbers term arent all that big. I think its to do with the far larger number of christians in the US who take the Bible more literally than those here.

    The biggest and most misunderstood difference between the US and UK is religion, they are FAR FAR more religious than us and it influences everything.
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