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Should the IRA be allowed in Government?
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
The IRA are in Government in Northern Ireland and in mainland Britain. Personally I believe they should not be allowed in Government as they have terrorised people for too long and are continuing to do so. What do you think?
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honestly, i think that the views of the people of northern ireland must be represented, and if that means that former terrorist organisations take seats at the table, then so be it - we cannot exclude them for their prior actions. if the IRA was still active their would be a considerable argument against Sinn Fein being in govt. in n. ireland, but otherwise they should not be excluded - that would be undemocratic.
sorry i dont agree, but if Sinn Fein is willing to stop fighting and start playing maturely, thenit is wrong for them to be denied a role in governemnt, if that is what the people choose. as for the real ira, they are a thorn in the side of the whole peace process, as they continue to tarnish the cause of ulster nationalism in the eyes of the rets of britain and the world.
the IRA have done some horrific things in their time, but a part of the peace process must be the consent of all sides to put aside the past, and move on together. therefore, i think that if people choose Sinn Fein to represent them, we cannot deny them that right.
I think if people vote for a party then those people deserve to be represented.
However, i do see ur point cuz of sinn fein bein linked to the ira, tho technically they are still on ceasefire but i know its not really that simple as there is still violence from both sides.
Usually i avoid all this political shite cuz its not worth the bother, i just get on with my life and let other ppl get on wey theirs.
So let them have their seats in government - who cares? - its not gonna make that big a difference anyway.
Totally off topic now, i hate they way politicians go after your vote and pure lick up your hole and then once the election's over you'll neva see them again <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/mad.gif">
~Dreamer
Excellent point Dan.
If you read Irish history (I did it for O Level) you would find that most of the 'wrongs' were perpetrated by the British.
To deny Sinn Fein a chance to seek a political solution now would be just another example of that.
I am staunchly British but even I can see when we are wrong.
Besides, when in a democracy you should listen to ALL sides. Even those you disagree with.
"Cough up the rent, Mr Kent
And don't go blame it on the government"
Does the backing of the british government to terrorise the catholic minority in Northern Ireland automatically get them a seat?
The situation in Ireland is made up of villians and heros... Unfortunetly each group is a hero to thier own side and satan to the other. Exclusion of one party would only justify further violence.
"Do as you would be done by"
Jesus
The simple fact of the matter is that both sides have weapons and neither is willing to trust the other to decomission first.
Plus its only a symbol of good faith to placatle the public, these organisations have no problems getting thier hands on newer and better weapons.
Only a political solution to the current state of affairs will result in a long lasting peace and that will never occur if Sein Faine are left out of the peace process....
Don't you think that the Unionist have rather tarnished souls too?
Spade
The IRA are the only 'free men' in all of england. They will not stand down and turn in their arms (it is a death offense to do so) and become emasculated 'subjects' as many demand...and if it continues...under arms of course...the IRA just may save the british from themselves and could certainly rule more fairly than your current masters.
'Ourselves Alone' says a lot...pay attention and you just might find your own freedom.
Diesel
88888888
If Sinn Fein could be said to represent the IRA in a political forum and make decisions that would be passed through to the IRA and acted upon then yes, I'd like to see the move from terrorism to government (not much difference after all, just slightly fewer guns). If the IRA could be tied down and their views represented as opposed to mindless acts of violence this would be a good thing. However I don't believe Sinn Fein represents everyone in the IRA, especially with splinter groups forming and continuing the violent tradition, so they may make promises about decommisioning weapons but these would be empty gestures.
And as funds for their political and other practises still come from America and other places it seems time to convert their priorities from weapons to political propaganda.
As for funds coming from US...probably most do...the crown has robbed Ireland of everything worthwile...reparations are in order...another brave issue for the UN to take up...and soon.
Maybe we, US, could get the UN to relocate to Ireland...what a charming thought...especially since they are so thoroughly despised here and the IRA appears to be very adept at dealing with offending institutions.
Give up their guns...yeah, when turtles fly! Power comes out of the barrel of a gun...something the 'subjects' appear to have forgotten.
Diesel
88888888
If it gets NI cleaned up faster then Sinn Fein should be allowed seats. The three sides have all done things equally horrific in the past. Lets just hope things start moving forward.
Diesel, only reason the IRA groups are ever in England is to pick up cached weapons or to place bombs. I dont think I have ever read anywhere that the British want to make the IRA British subjects, or the Republican Irish for that matter. Methinks you are getting a lil confused again.
I agree they would probably make a better job of government than our current one..But then thats not saying much
"An Englishman's never so natural as when he's holding his tongue." --Henry James
the only way peace will ever occur is if the british pull out of N.I. and ignore the pleas from many in there to stay. they can then run it how they want and at least mainland uk won't be attacked because of it
then watch as people leave N.I. and come to what's left of britain...
Playing with fire will ultimately see you burnt <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/ukliam2.gif">
People also forget that the British Labour government was also wrong to bomb Serbia and Iraq in 1999 as it breached international law that says that no country may attack another unless it is in self defence. The British Labour government are therefore as much terrorists as the IRA, as hundereds died as a result of the NATO bombing of Serbia and the country was devastated by the bombing.
[This message has been edited by dragonfly (edited 14-08-2001).]
It might have something to do with the fact that Sinn Fein are the politcial wing of the IRA and that both Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness are both former (can you ever leave?) serving members of the IRA, by their own admission.
Ok, with regards Serbia, what would YOU have done to try and safeguard the lives of the Kosovans? Do we not have a duty to try and protect people from tyranny? Wasn't it our failure to do precisely that which led, in part, to the massacre of the Jews in WW2?
As far as Iraq goes, the attacks you mention (which continue to this day) are as a direct result of the ceasfire - signed by Iraq - at the end of the Gulf War. All the time that Iraqi forces target US/UK warplanes with SAMs there WILL be retalliation. You cannot blame the Labour Govt for the Iraqi breaches of this ceasefire. Saddam knows this and is relying on the bleeding hearts within these two countries to support him.
As for protecting the Kosavons from tyranny, that was just an excuse for the bombing because before the bombing only a few thousand Kosovans were being forced from their homes, and bombing Belgarde destroying schools, hospitals, factories, homes and killing thousands of civilians did not help the Kosavan refugees one bit. In fact after the bombing started, that was when the Serbian army started mass ethnic cleansing in Kosovo not before the bombing.
Also what a bout NATO member Turkey who since 1984 have persecuted the Kurdish minority in their country destroying hundreds of villages and killing 15,000 Kurds. Not only have other NATO countries done nothing to stop Turkeys attrocites they are still selling arms to Turkey.
The same is true of Indonesia where in 1975 the Indonesian army invaded East Timor and killed a quarter of the population in the war against the East Timorese resistance. Britain until recently still sold arms to Indonesia. More recently look at what is happening to the Palestinians under Israeli rule, yet the west is still supplying Israel with arms.
As for a Iraq, before the Gulf War of 1991, Britain supported Sadamn Hussein during the Iran/Iraq war selling Iraq arms and even supporting him when he gassed Kurdish villages in 1988. The 1991 Gulf War was also only fought to protect the wests oil supplies and the profits of the oil companies. At the time of the Gulf War it was even stated that: "if Kuwait grew carrots we would not give a damn about the invasion."
The bombing of 1999 was supposed to destroy Iraqs' weapons supplies after it kicked out UN weapons inspecters but loads of civilian targets were hit and there were thousands of civilian casualties.
The bombing and the ultimatum were based on lessons learned from Croatia and Bosnia. What happened there? Did NATO start bombing before the ethnic cleansing? When the UN troops ALLOWED the cleansing to go on what did you think then? Was that acceptable? WOuld it have been acceptable to let it happen again?
By your own admission the cleansing in Kosovo had started BEFORE the NATO bombing, BEFORE the ultimatum. Would it have stopped?
Difference here was that Slobodan picked on someone willing and able to stand up to him.
I don't disagree with you on any of those points. In fact as I am as opposed to those actions and have protested about them.
But just because our actions were wrong there doesn't mean that they are always wrong.
Again I agree that the war was founght to protect oil supplies. I never bought into the 'fight for democracy' bullshit at the time - afterall only 5% of the Kuwaiti population is allowed to vote.
But what was the alternative. At what point should the world's oil supplies be protected? After they are in the hands of a maniacal dictator - I know that Saudi isn't much of a democracy, but the comparison...
The world runs on oil. Sorry if you don't like it, but it's a fact. Until that changes armies will fight over this precious resource.
The problem with warfare is that people die. It is ALWAYS an innocent party who suffers, not one sigle soldier has ever declared war on another - it is always a politician who is miles away from the action.
But at the end of the day, how do you think that nations should resolve disputes? How do you negotiate with someone like Saddam? Or even the Indonesian regime?
There are one or two differences.
1. The Northern Irish population has voted to remain British. When did the Pelstinians get to vote?
2. The Palestinians are housed in refugee camps.
3. We tend not to send gunships out to attack civilian targets in Ireland.
4. We do not carry out reprisal attacks, no do we pursue a military option to its fullest extent. We prosecute terrorists in a court of law. "Kill the rebels" isn't national policy in this country.
5. We do not practise ethnic cleansing. The areas known as 'Jewish settlements' were once villages or farmland belonging to the palestinians. And were are they now?
Remember it is the international arms trade that fuels such wars so most of these wars would not happen in the first place if western countries had a strict ethical arms policy. Also the bombing of Belgarde and Serbia did not help the Kosovans, most of the Serbs hated Milosovic so why should they have been bombed.
As for the Gulf War there are other sources of oil in the world and no matter who controlled the Kuwait oilfields they would still have to export oil. Kuwait itself was not a democracy either. The war was really to protect the profits of the oil companies who want oil at rock bottom prices so that they can make vast profits.
There are alternatives to oil aswell, for example hemp can be made into fuel. One of the reasons that hemp was made illegal in America was because it was in competition with the nylon industry which used oil.
[This message has been edited by dragonfly (edited 14-08-2001).]
I won't even bother to argue against the "have guns, therefore free" line, since your mind is so very clearly set in permacrete on that score. Or maybe I will... Free to what? Free from what?
It would be good if england would take the high ground and divest itself of interest in NI...and let the armed men of NI settle matters for themselves...I doubt that it would be the blood bath so many envision especially without the unwanted thrid party, england, in the middle supporting one side.
As for being 'marxists' I can only imagine that they are willing to 'be' whatever side is willing to give them arms, straighten it out later if there is need to do so.
Diesel
88888888
unwanted third party? While I appreciate you Americans have a problem with voting, the Irish dont...They voted to stay part of Britain..They voted for the British army to stay there....More than 850,000 people WANT the British there.
Diesel, they arent just willing to go along with whoever will give them guns...They are hardcore socialists..Send the Sinn Fein press people an email from their site and ask them their take on gun control/field sports etc..The IRA may wellkeep their guns, but the Irish people will be disbarred the use of them..
This is not a noble RKBA issue..The IRA keeps their guns because they are a good bargaining tool..Once they get what they want, they will disarm the entire population just like EVERY govt in the world does.
I'd agree.
Just points 4 & 5, they are enough.
4. Maybe you should tell the SAS this. They don't seem to know.
5. The six counties of Northern Ireland were once the land, the farms, the villages of Irishmen and women before the English pushed them off it. Where are they now?
4 - Acts of reprisal, or act of natioanl defence? Which particular attacks are we talking about? Any where the 'heroes of the revolution' were CLEARLY unarmed?
Remember that the SAS also cleared the Iranian Embassy - it the kind of mission they are called out for. Dealing with terrorrists, they don't go looking for them at home - each of the IRA members killed by the SAS were on 'active duty'. Apparently.
If Britain had the balls to pursue the military option to its fullest then there would have been civil war, and both Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams would probably have been dead by now. but the British Govt didn;t want the give the IRA the credence is craved, but declaring a war on them it would have legitimised them as an 'army', instead they are treated as criminals (or were).
5 - Er...still there perhaps or are you suggesting the there are NO ethnic Irish in Northern Ireland?
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Tuesday-Thursday, 14-16 August, 2001
1. RUC INVESTIGATED OVER OMAGH BOMB
2. Disappointment at revised policing plan
3. Securocrat agenda seen in Bogota story
4. Loyalists attack Catholic children
5. Prominent defection 'a sign of disillusion'
6. British border incursion
7. Remembering Tom Mor McElwee
8. Feature: Long Kesh revisited
9. Analysis: Trimble can celebrate as process begins to unhinge
10. Events in Ireland and Britain
>>>>>> RUC INVESTIGATED OVER OMAGH BOMB
The Police Ombudsman has launched an investigation into reports
that the RUC knew of the Omagh bombing days before the attack by
dissident Republican militarists in 1998.
The decision to launch an investigation follows reports that a
double-agent tipped off the RUC's Special Branch 48 hours in
advance about the location of the bomb materials destined for
Omagh, and the identity of one of those involved in the attack.
It has also been alleged that Special Branch and 26-County Garda
police were informed in advance about the car used to transport
the bomb to Omagh.
The RUC has always said it received inadequate warnings about the
location of the bomb, which resulted in the heaviest death toll
in any single incident in the conflict. It has also maintained
that it had no prior warning of the Omagh bomb and has denounced
suggestions that it failed to act properly as "abhorrent".
But the inquiry, which was welcomed by relatives of the bomb's 31
victims, has caused a furore. At the launch of a new police
investigation into the Omagh bomb on Tuesday, the RUC was accused
of engaging in a cover-up by Lawrence Rush, the husband of one of
the victims.
In the back of their minds is the fact that the RUC Special
Branch is known to have allowed or even encouraged some
paramilitary attacks for propoganda or military purposes. In the
1972 Dublin and Monaghan bombings in which 33 civilians died, the
Special Branch are understood to have colluded with the loyalist
bombers in order to turn nationalist opinion in the 26 Counties
against the IRA.
The agent at the centre of the current allegations, who uses the
pseudonym Kevin Fulton, has said the RUC could and should have
prevented the Omagh attack.
In an interview, Fulton, who is in hiding, also said that
he told the detective leading the Omagh investigation about his
warnings three months later and even showed him the site where
the bomb was made, but was never asked to give a statement.
Fulton's lawyer, Imran Khan, added: "I can confirm my client
is cooperating with the Northern Ireland ombudsman with relation
to an investigation into the RUC. I cannot give further details
at this stage."
>>>>>> Disappointment at revised policing plan
The proposed new Implementation Plan for Policing, published
today [Friday], has been criticised as only a minor revision of
the existing Mandelson policing plan and not the hoped-for return
to the policing reform proposals of the Patten Commission.
The new implementation plan paraphrases much of the content of
the old plan, drawn up under the former British Secretary of
State, Peter Mandelson. His policing legislation was greeted
furiously by nationalists as a dilution and a denial of the
moderate Patten reforms.
Strong new amending legislation is being sought to ensure there
is a new start to policing for both communities. But the new plan
is notable for a lack of progress on a number of key issues.
The British government has given the parties a 'deadline' of
midday on Tuesday to say if they will appoint to the new police
board.
While the other parties are still considering the 75-page
document, Sinn Fein has said the plan is not enough for them to
appoint to the board at this stage.
In a statement issued on the eve of today's publication, Sinn
Fein Chairperson Mitchel McLaughlin said his party had carried
out an exhaustive assessment of the document, but there were no
substantive changes between the new document and the existing
legislation and implementation plan.
"The British government has failed to resolve many of those
crucial issues that are vitally important to nationalists and
republicans," he said.
"Sinn Fein has been consistent in our criticism of the Mandelson
legislation and implementation plan. We have argued that it does
not form the basis for the new beginning to policing as promised
in the Good Friday Agreement. Without a return to the Patten
report as a starting position for change, any new proposals will
remain unacceptable.
"The Implementation Plan currently being offered by the British
government does not go far enough. It does not constitute a
genuine attempt to bridge the gap between republican and
nationalist aspirations for a proper and consensual approach to
policing.
"Key issues which need to be resolved have not been resolved.
These include the limitations on the initiation of inquiries;
powers of and appointments to the policing boards; powers of the
Ombudsman; protection being offered to human rights offenders and
informers; and changes to the Special Branch.
"With respect to all of these issues there are no substantive
changes to what was already on the table. The Implementation
Plan does not constitute a decisive effort to win nationalist and
republican support for the new police service.
"More importantly it does not deliver on the new beginning
promised in the Good Friday Agreement."
>>>>>> Loyalists attack Catholic children
Two terrified Catholic girls have been attacked by a loyalist mob
as tensions continued to escalate in north Belfast.
The two were surrounded by thugs carrying iron bars and cudgels
as they picked up a prescription from a chemist shop used by both
communities.
Sixteen-year-old Mary Jo Harvey said she feared for her life as
the 40-strong mob descended on the chemists shortly after 5pm.
The teenager said that she and her 13-year-old friend were
attacked in the shop minutes earlier by a group of loyalist
youths.
"I was punched and kicked in the chemist's and then a crowd of
men were shouting and waving iron bars and cudgels outside the
shop," she said.
"I was very scared and thought I was going to be beaten to
death."
The father of one of the girls received six staples to the head
after being beaten as he tried to rescue his daughter. Another
Catholic man had to be assisted from the nearby health centre
during the incident.
James Harvey said he was attacked by loyalists as he attempt to
reach his daughter, and was further assaulted by the RUC.
"I was just trying to get my girl. Loyalists beat me across the
road and then I was hit by the police," he said.
"Loyalists are trying to intimidate Catholics from using the
chemist's and local doctors. It's an absolute disgrace."
Sinn Fein representative Cathy Stanton said: "This is not
tit-for-tat. It is being clearly orchestrated by loyalists. They
are trying to draw the nationalist community into confrontation."
Meanwhile, a sectarian attack on a 12-year-old Catholic boy in
south Belfast has been widely condemned.
The incident happened at the junction of Rosetta Road and
Wynchurch Road at around 8.40pm on Monday.
The boy was approached by three youths who questioned him about
his religion. They then attacked him, inflicting a cut lip and
bruising to his head.
Sinn Fein councillor Alex Maskey called the attack "deeply
worrying".
"Given that in the past week we have seen an increase in
stone-throwing incidents against nationalist homes by loyalists
in the south Belfast area, it would appear that loyalists are
slowly increasing their campaign," he said.
He called on those with influence within the loyalist community
"to do all in their power to end such attacks before they spiral
out of control".
Also on Monday night, Catholics homes on the outskirts of
Glengormley were attacked.
Fireworks were thrown in two separate incidents at the rear of
houses, while a pipe bomb device was later described as a hoax.
CHURCH ATTACK
A priest was forced to hold mass in the sacristy of a Catholic
church in County Antrim yesterday after an arson attack on
Wednesday night.
St Peter's the Rock Church near Stoneyford was set on fire around
midnight, but was saved from destruction by a passing parishioner
The fire damaged a window and caused scorch and smoke damage to a
row of pews.
A dozen parishioners who arrived yesterday for morning mass
huddled into the sacristy for the service.
Seamus Armstrong, who is a member of the parish committee, said:
"I was driving down into the chapel when I noticed a fire
extinguisher sitting outside the window and a fire inside the
church.
"I lifted the extinguisher and I hit the handle of the fire
extinguisher, but it was like a flame-thrower," he said.
This is the second time in three years that the church has been
targeted by arsonists.
The church, which is more than two hundred years old, was
completely burnt out in 1998.
>>>>>> Securocrat agenda seen in Bogota story
Sinn Fein has accused the British government of using the arrests
of three Irishmen in Colombia as a propoganda vehicle and an
excuse to delay demilitarisation in the North.
The party's Assembly member for Newry and Armagh, Mr Conor
Murphy, said British intelligence had "hyped up" the arrests to
stall moves on the dismantling of military installations across
the North of Ireland.
Three men, two of whom were once Sinn Fein members, were held by
Colombian state forces as they travelled through a demilitarised
zone near a rebel-controlled region.
None of the men have been charged with any offence or linked to
any organisation, but this has not prevented a paper-thin
propoganda campaign by British and Colombian authorities.
In contravention of the men's human rights, the three have been
bizarrely paraded in front of television cameras by the Colombian
authorities. Meanwhile, the right-wing media and political
rivals in Britain and Ireland have spent the week writing
wild stories involving cocaine, arms and Marxist politics in the
clear hope that the public will not remember when the truth
emerges.
Mr Murphy pointed out that what information is emerging from
Bogota has shown that the wild accounts of what actually happened
in Colombia, if anything, are already beginning to unravel.
"On Monday they talked about these people out dealing with drugs,
and that proved to be bunkum. On Tuesday they talked about some
video evidence, and we have yet to see any of that. And there was
an attempt to try and sell one of these people as a Sinn Fein
representative in Cuba, which has proved to be rubbish," Mr
Murphy said.
"The people who are spinning that story are the very people who
are justifying their presence and their very existence in places
like this [the North]."
The Sinn Fein MLA called on the Northern Secretary, Dr John Reid,
to "go back to the drawing board" on the demilitarisation issue.
"The British government proposals on demilitarisation are a
pathetic joke, and their presentation two weeks ago only served
to undermine the peace process," he said.
"The British Secretary of State, John Reid, has to go back to the
drawing board and produce a realistic package and programme for
demilitarisation that is credible and will build confidence in
the peace process."
While the proposed demilitarisation measures - the closure of one
sangar, one base and two observation towers in south Armagh - in
the two governments' package were "welcome in a small way", they
were no substitute for actual demilitarisation, he insisted.
>>>>>> British border incursion
The Sinn Fein Chair of Dundalk Urban District Council, Sean
Kenna, has called on the Dublin Minister for Foreign Affairs,
Brian Cowen, to make a strong protest to the British authorities
following a cross-border incursion on Friday morning last week
by members of the British Army and the RUC who mounted a
checkpoint on the southern side of the border. The incident took
place at 10am in the Hackballscross area of County Louth 100
yards south of the Armagh border.
Councillor Kenna said that Sinn Fein had contacted the Department
of Foreign Affairs requesting that Brian Cowen raise this matter
with the British government immediately.
Kenna said: "This morning members of the British Army and the RUC
mounted a checkpoint south of the Armagh border. It was only
after locals protested that the forces retreated.
"These checkpoints are unwelcome and unnecessary in the Six
Counties. They are completely unacceptable on this side of the
border. This again highlights the urgent need for complete
demilitarisation of the British war machine throughout the Six
Counties."
>>>>>> Remembering Tom Mor McElwee
The 20th anniversary of the death on hunger strike of Volunteer
Thomas McElwee, Big Tom, was marked on Saturday 11 August.
A day of commemoration, organised by the local 1981 Committee,
was held in Tom's native Bellaghy with an exhibition of personal
items marking different stages of Tom's life, handicrafts and
republican artefacts on show in the local hall.
Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams attended the exhibition and
unveiled a plaque at Tom McElwee's house, among the rolling hills
of South Derry, close to where his cousin Francis Hughes was also
born and raised.
Of the ten men to die on hunger strike, five were from the county
of Derry - that two were cousins whose upbringing was so similar
and intertwined was remarkable. The boys from Tamlaghtduff were
truly among the most remarkable of men; the bravest and most
committed of republicans.
After he unveiled the memorial stone at the McElwee household,
where he was with Tom's mother and his many brothers and sisters,
Adams attended a special memorial mass in honour of the dead
hunger striker.
The Sinn Fein President was then the main speaker at a
wreath-laying ceremony in Bellaghy graveyard at the burial site
of Tom, where he was laid to rest beside his cousin.
Hundreds of people attended the ceremony, many travelling many
hundreds of miles, including Cork hurling great Jimmy Barry
Murphy.
The MP for the Mid-Ulster, Sinn Fein negotiator Martin McGuinness
attended, as did Francie Molloy, Sinn Fein chairperson of
Dungannon council. Many ex-POWs from across the north, many of
whom were on the blanket with Tom and his brother Benedict, were
also there. Benedict, who was arrested and charged with Tom,
spent around eight years in the H Blocks.
As he addressed the crowd, Gerry Adams, repeating something he
has said on many an occasion, reminded his audience that the
thinking behind British policy was to hive off the prisoners from
the greater republican family and break them.
The policy of isolation was based on the thinking that the
prisoners were the weakest link in the republican chain and if
they were broken then the republican struggle would be broken or
badly wounded.
The prisoners and the hunger strikers in particular, he said,
showed the British and Margaret Thatcher that the spirit of
resistance ran deeper than they imagined and proved that the
British just don't understand the value Irish people put on their
freedom.
Adams also disclosed how Tom, as he prepared himself for death,
wrote it was his wish that the people of Ireland could live in
peace with each other in the future.
The Sinn Fein President was speaking the day before he was due to
address the main commemoration parade in Belfast, where he warned
republicans that the unionist and the British strategy at this
present time was to pressurise republicans into giving ground. We
need only look to the example of the hunger strikers to see the
failure of British and unionist attempts to break the republican
struggle, he said.
>>>>>> Prominent defection 'a sign of disillusion'
"It is clear that many Fianna Fail activists and supporters in
Mayo and elsewhere in the west of Ireland are demoralised by the
failure of their party hierarchy to address local and regional
concerns," says Sinn Fein candidate for Mayo and party Ard
Chomhairle member Vincent Wood.
He was commenting on the recent defection of
Ballaghaderreen-based Paul Whelan to Sinn Fein from the governing
Fianna Fail party.
"Paul Whelan was very clear as to why he left the Fianna Fail,"
said Wood "He said that Fianna Fail had abandoned the west of
Ireland. Many in Fianna Fail, including those in local leadership
positions, are saying much the same and it must be difficult for
their local public representatives to explain why the west has
been so neglected."
Meanwhile, July inflation figures of 4.8% showed a fall in
26-County prices to their lowest level in over a year. The
figures released last Friday also registered the fourth
consecutive month of decline and had government spokesperson,
Seamus Brennan, out plugging the "good news".
But coming just two days after the announcement of the Gateway
closure, the coalition government was desperate for any data that
could show the economy in a good light. Rising inflation over
the 18 months up to last March had become a hugely important
political and economic issues, principally as workers
participating in the partnership agreements were seeing the real
value of the wage rises won through negotiations with employers
eroded by increases in prices.
Brennan offered an interesting analysis. He claimed "the
underlying performance of the Irish economy still remains very
strong and we continue to enjoy growth levels that are the envy
of our European partners".
But Ireland is not the envy of Europe -- it's high growth economy
has the largest and still growing gap between rich and poor in
the EU, has one of the worst health services and most underfunded
public transport services.
The positive side of what has happened to the economy is that the
hard efforts of workers generated enormous wealth, but thousands
more were and are being left behind. Many of those are deserting
Fianna Fail.
"Fianna Fail has been described as now having a 'republican' and
a 'corporate' wing," said Wood. "The latter is clearly in the
ascendancy and although we will see attempts by the Fianna Fail
leadership to regain its republican credentials with a full state
burial for Kevin Barry and his nine comrades who were executed
during the War of Independence, many will note that there is more
to republicanism then mere rhetoric.
"Sinn Fein is a republican party. We are the only party organised
throughout the 32 counties and are working towards equality and
liberty for all throughout the island of Ireland. Increasing
numbers of people, including many who previously supported Fianna
Fail, west of the Shannon and elsewhere, can see this."
>>>>>> Feature: Long Kesh revisited
BY JIM GIBNEY
At approximately 12.30 pm last Friday, 10 August, I stood in
silence in the cell where Bobby Sands died 20 years ago. A few
minutes later, I was in the cell where Francis Hughes died and a
few minutes after that in the cell where Raymond McCreesh died.
It was the first time I was in their cells in 20 years. I had
visited them at various stages on their hunger strike and as I
wandered around the wing of the prison hospital where they spent
the last days of their young lives, the memories came flooding
back.
I saw Bobby lying on his bed, his mother and sister Marcella by
his bed. He was close to the end yet there was a calmness, a
serenity about him and the bedside scene. I saw Francis again, as
he was, days before his death, lying sick on his deathbed with
his mother and brother Oliver by his side. In Raymond's cell I
recalled him telling me, "Francis had a bad night last night. He
hasn't long left."
As we stood in Francis' cell, Gerry Adams told the story about
the time Don Concannon, Roy Mason's number two, visited Francis.
He arrived at the gaol in a fanfare of publicity. He was a man in
a hurry, on a mission. He was a courier with a very important
message that Francis had to hear. It would change everything.
Concannon told a man close to death, "You have no support. You're
going to die."
And the man who put fear into the British Crown forces and had
them on the run in South Derry; the man who liberated Bellaghy's
Scribe Road, where he played and grew up as a boy with his cousin
Tom Mc Elwee, retorted sharply, "Close the door on your way out!"
Everything about the prison hospital was different. Everything
was smaller, the reception area, the canteen was narrower. The
cells jumped out at you with their doors wide open.
In the hospital canteen, Danny Morrison described a remarkable
but heartbreaking scene. Sitting around the table with him were
Mickey Devine, Tom McElwee, Kieran Doherty, Kevin Lynch, Laurence
McKeown and Joe McDonnell.
Joe was too weak to walk so he was brought in on a wheelchair.
Martin Hurson was in his cell too ill to move. Throughout the
meeting, the lads attended to Joe, making sure he was alright.
Joe's only concern was to query Danny over whether he had
smuggled in cigarettes. He smoked throughout the meeting.
"Where was Bobby's cell?" Gerry asked me. "There it is," I said
mistakenly, pointing to a warder's office. "No here it is," I
quickly corrected myself.
"And here up the landing," I said to Danny, "this cell here, this
is where Raymond died." I shouted for Tom Hartley, who was going
through the cells looking for items of historical interest for
his vast collection in the
Linenhall Library. "Tom c'mere. C'mon see Francis' cell."
I watched Maura McCrory, who led the 'Relatives' Action
Committee', the 'RACs', the support organisation for the
prisoners, press her body into the corner of the cell where
Bobby's head would have rested on his pillow. She moved her body
slowly along the wall against which Bobby's bed was placed. She
was engaged in an intimate, tactile ritual reaching back through
20 years of her own life to touch Bobby on his journey's end.
Marie Moore, now a Sinn Fein Councillor but 20 years ago an
important figure in Sinn Fein's POW Department, wept quietly in
Bobby's cell.
I looked for the cell where I think I last saw Patsy O'Hara. I
couldn't make up my mind which one it was but the image of him
was powerful. Sitting in a wheelchair in a multi-coloured cotton
dressing gown, gaunt, his dark hair lined with sweat, he smiled
at me and waved his long arm, which lingered for a long time in
the air.
The visit to the prison hospital ended too quickly. I would have
liked to have spent some time on my own in Bobby's cell.
The visit was very emotional for all of us. During the hunger
strike, we buried our emotions under ten ton of concrete. We
couldn't afford to allow our emotions to surface naturally. Had
we done so then we would have been overwhelmed by the sadness of
it all, by the burden of watching ten young men slowly dying. We
would not have been able to do our job of managing the hunger
strike, of building support for the prisoners' cause on the
streets.
But there comes a time when one's emotions have to be freed up.
The visit to the prison and the events commemorating the 20th
anniversary of the hunger strike have helped all of us come to
terms with the part we played in an epic human and political
episode in the struggle for freedom.
The visit to Long Kesh had started at 10am that morning. On board
the mini-bus were Dessie Mackin, Marie Moore, Maura McCrory,
Mairead Keane, Danny Morrison, Tom Hartley, Martin Ferris, Larry
Downes and myself. Gerry Adams travelled separately.
It wasn't long before the 'craic' started and the prison
experiences were tripping off people's tongues. I noticed they
were all humorous.
We were met at the prison by two warders in civilian dress. They
were our official guides, although Gerry quickly assumed the role
as our unofficial guide. "There's the internees' visiting area,"
he pointed out. "Is that the prison hospital?" asked Danny. "No,"
said the warder, "That's the stores. The hospital is over there."
"Is that Cage 2?" I asked. "No," said Gerry and the warder
interjected, "It's further on down."
"Where's the gate the lads escaped out of?" someone shouted out.
"It's further up the wall. It is blocked up now," said the
warder. "That's where I was caught trying to escape," said Gerry,
pointing to an area outside the internees' visiting area. He was
sentenced to three years for his efforts.
The first Cage we visited was Cage 6. It was here that Gerry was
interned with 'Darkie' Hughes and Ivor Bell. The internees had
nicknamed it the 'General's Cage' because of the number of senior
republicans held there. It was from here that the 'Dark' and Ivor
successfully escaped and Gerry was caught.
We moved onto Cage 17. Dessie made us all laugh when he told the
story about a prank played on him by the 'King mixer', Martin
Meehan and 'Cleaky'
Clarke in the '70s. Martin wrote a 'Dear John' letter from
Dessie's then girlfriend, now his wife. Dessie was so angry at
being 'dumped' that he threw a necklace that his girl had bought
him over the wire onto the football pitch. Over 90 men watched
Dessie and fell about laughing.
The following morning he had the entire Cage out on the pitch
helping him to look for the necklace.
I was keen to visit Cage 3, where I was interned for most of the
time I was there. I was disappointed to see Cages 3, 4 and 5 no
longer there. The passage of time had taken its toll. All that
was left was the concrete base on which the Nissen huts were
built.
I went alone to the site of Cage 3. I quickly reflected about
myself, an 18-year-old boy, captured, trapped in a strange world,
a world that had suddenly shrunk and was framed by barbed wire,
gates and locks. I felt sorry for the 18-year-old who never had a
normal youth. In the midday sun, breaking through the clouds, I
realised I was mourning for a lost youth.
Standing in the middle of the concrete base close to where my
bunk bed had been, I travelled back nearly 30 years. I could see
the raw energy in the 18-year-old as he stormed around the Cage,
pacing seven to the dozen. A lump came into my throat as I
watched him receive the news of his father's death. I looked
again at him as he walked from the Cage on eight hours' parole to
bury his father in March 1973.
A smile of pride flashed across my face when I recalled being
asked to participate in the escape that saw John Green walk to
freedom from Cage 3, dressed as a priest. From the same Cage I
watched Mark Graham from the New Lodge Road trying to escape. The
plan was that Mark would hide underneath the lorry that brought
the internees their food parcels and escape when it left the
precincts of the prison. The plan went disastrously wrong when
the lorry went over a ramp and the axle snapped Mark's spine. He
never walked again.
I looked at the corner of the hut where a young Joe McDonnell
slept or mostly didn't, because he kept our hut awake most nights
with his peculiar brand of humour. Joe was a character.
I 'bowled' round the yard and came to the spot where on 14
September 1974, the prison governor called me and told me I was
being released. And then I heard Danny shouting and looked across
to his old Cage, Cage 2, which remained intact. The visit to Long
Kesh was over.
We gathered ourselves together, boarded the mini-bus and were
transported to our own mini-bus for the journey home.
The trip home to Belfast was in marked contrast to the one
travelled earlier. There was no 'craic', just silence. We were
lost in our own thoughts of what we had all been through. That
afternoon I cried sore but I knew the visit did me good. I'll
need a few more visits to the gaol to fully come to an
appreciation of the role Long Kesh has played in my life.
It shaped the person I am today and I know it did the same for
thousands of others.
That is why Long Kesh should be preserved as a museum, just like
Kilmainham.
There's a story to be told. Thousands of political prisoners,
republican and loyalist, passed through its gates and locks.
Prison warders also have their story. Let them all be told.
>>>>>> Analysis: Trimble can celebrate as process begins to unhinge
BY MICHAEL PIERSE
Three cheers for David Trimble. The UUP leader can well afford to
relax and savour success as he holidays in the serene hills of
Austria.
Far removed from the deepening, indeed the deepest, crisis that
has faced the peace process since its inception, Trimble can
reflect on his prophetic letter of October last year with
satisfaction.
At the time, he was facing into a crisis of his own, with many
media pundits suggesting that his leadership might not survive
the Ulster Unionist Council (UUC) meeting, convened on 27
October. It did, by a narrow margin, and, lamentably, so too did
the strategy his letter outlined.
Essentially that strategy was, and is, to create a crisis in the
peace process, blame republicans, achieve suspension and
renegotiate the Agreement. And this isn't just idle speculation -
it comes straight from the horse's mouth.
In the letter, circulated to all members of the UUC the day
before that body met, Trimble outlined what he saw as the way
forward for unionism. Jeffrey Donaldson was also to put proposals
to the UUC the following day, but these were, according to
Trimble, "fatally flawed". Donaldson proposed to bring down the
Good Friday Agreement institutions - which 'appeared reasonable',
according to Trimble - but what Donaldson offered was "an exit
strategy without a re-entry strategy". Trimble believed he could
go one better.
Outlining a course of action more appropriate to a Machiavelli
disciple than a Nobel Peace Prize winner, Trimble pre-empted the
events of the last seven weeks since his resignation:
"Tomorrow I will outline a carefully considered response should
republicanism continue to ignore its commitments on the issue of
disarmament," he wrote.
"The response is intended to increase pressure progressively on
republicans and nationalists. This might result in a crisis for
the Assembly and Executive. But if that arises we must do all we
can to place responsibility on republicans. Only in that way can
suspension be achieved. Suspension is preferable to collapse, for
it is the only way we can hope to make progress afterwards."
It is not uncustomary in this, at times, fragile and tentative
peace process for a week that began with glimmerings of hope to
end in political crisis. But this week's events were a sad
revelation of the political strength and influence still held by
unionism.
What David Trimble outlined in his letter was a means by which
unionism could retain, or regain (after a crisis), the elements
of the Agreement they want - the Assembly, devolution - and
frustrate, if not negate, those they don't - policing, human
rights, demilitarisation. Thuis amounts to a de facto return to
the Stormont rule that instigated 30 years of war.
The British government, a malleable media, and, to some extent,
the Dublin government, have been compliant in achieving this.
'Poor David', the 'beleagured' leader of the UUP, has been
afforded the space to destroy what is left of the peace process.
The context in which this has been allowed to happen, and in
which the IRA withdrew its historic arms proposal, illuminates
why republicans are so angry at the past week's events. The
withdrawal of the IRA proposal was the result of unionist
rejection of that proposal by the UUP and the subsequent actions
of British Secretary of State John Reid in suspending the
Assembly and calling for yet another period of 'talks' - what
David Trimble had envisaged all those months ago.
Predictably, elements of the media and unionism reacted to the
IRA withdrawal by branding it a 'fit of pique' by republicans.
Their assertion that republicans are angry is correct. Why
wouldn't republicans be angry when, following seven years of
incessant harping on about 'decommissioning', the IRA makes a
move on arms and it is rejected by unionists. Why wouldn't
republicans be angry, when this unprecedented move has received a
slap in the face from the British government, who again
capitulate to unionist demands. Why wouldn't republicans be
angry, when loyalist sectarian harrassment and attacks have
characterised a summer of mayhem in the Six Counties, yet have
induced little or no reaction from the British government or
unionist leaders - while all the while they repeat and re-repeat
the mantra of 'decommissioning'. Republicans are angry because
whenever unionism takes a 'fit of pique' the British government
has capitulated, whether it be on the issues of the stability of
the institutions, policing, demilitarisation or the equality
agenda. Republicans are angry and, if current conditions
continue, that anger will grow.
This is not to say that republicans have lost their faith in the
process, but there is a realisation that, no matter what
republicans do, unionists will still find a new obstacle to
replace the old one. To date, the British have failed the peace
process by failing to take on these unionist-imposed obstacles,
such as the refusal to appoint Sinn Fein ministers.
As soon as last week's IRA offer on arms was made, David Trimble
was saying that he would not return as First Minister unless the
SDLP backed his stance, and that of the British government, on
policing. Yet, this glaringly obvious political cynicism did not
merit one inch of column space in the national daily newspapers.
Instead, they moronically waited for the UUP press release to
emerge from their fax machines, and reprinted everything David
Trimble wanted them to say.
In terms of the British government, their assurances in private
that they would not suspend the institutions, and their public
welcome for the IRA proposal, meant nothing when John Reid
suspended the institutions - the second time a British Secretary
of State had done this in 18 months.
If the British government strategy is to exasperate republicans
and drag the whole process down crashing around our ears, they're
doing a damn good job.
>>>>>> Events in Ireland and Britain
SF FUNDRAISER: Featuring Drop the Anchor. Friday 17 August, Jimmy
G's, Watergate Street, BANDON, County Cork. Taille #5
SEAN RUSSELL/HUNGER STRIKE COMMEMORATION: Memorial plaque
unveiled at Sean Russell monument. Assemble 2pm Saturday 18
August, Five Lamps, North Strand, DUBLIN and march to Fairview
Park. Speakers: Gerry McGeough. Chair: Cllr Ruth Lynch; other
prominent speakers in attendance
VIGIL: In memory of Volunteers Tom Mcelwee and Michael Devine.
3pm Saturday 18 August, Daunt Square, CORK. Organised by Cork
H-Block/Armagh Committee
MARCH AGAINST RACISM: Assemble 2pm Saturday 18 August, Daunt
Square, CORK. Bring banners and placards. Followed by meeting in
An Spailpin Fanach at 3.30pm. Sponsored by various groups,
including SF
HUNGER-STRIKE TRIBUTE: 8pm till late Saturday 18 August, The
Blarney Castle, PERTH, Australia. Music by Brendan Woods and Sean
Roche. Organised by Australia Aid for Ireland
OGRA SHINN FEIN WEEKEND: 10.25am Saturday 18 August, Tower Hotel,
WATERFORD. There will be prominent speakers form Coiste na
n-Iarchimi and Sinn Fein Cuige Mumhan. Registration will begin at
10.25. There will be a Hunger Strike march through the City at
3pm with the Kevin Lynch RFB (Dungiven) and the Youghal
Volunteers RFB (Cork) in attendance. Function to follow that
night with Cork Rebel group Shennanagins. Everyone welcome. For
further information contact Ger Murnaghan on 021 4311389 Cuige
Mumhan Sinn Fein Office
HUNGER STRIKE COMMEMORATION: Saturday 18 August from 8pm till
late at the Haringey Irish Centre, Pretoria Road, LONDON,
England. Nearest tube: Seven Sisters BR: White Hart Lane. Buses:
149, 279, 259. Tickets: #10 door, #8 Advance. Tickets can be
obtained from: Haringey Irish Centre, Four Provinces Bookshop,
The Lion pub - Archway or by Tel: Peter on 020-8442 8778 or Cara
on 01992-308 539. Come enjoy the unique experience of Seanchai
(Irish American Rebel Hip-Hop band - ex Black 47), '67 (Irish
Rebel band), and Neck at the Haringey Irish Centre in memory of
the 1980/81 Hunger Strike. All funds raised for the 1980/'81
Irish Hunger Strike Commemoration Committee
HUNGER STRIKE MEETING: 8pm Wednesday 22 August, Hearmes Hotel,
CLONMEL, County Tipperary. Speakers: John Pickering and Seamus
Healy TD
SF FUNCTION: Kildare SF are hold a function to commemorate the
1981 Hunger Strike. Music by the Highwaymen. 9pm Thursday 23
August (note change of date), Stirrups pub, NEWBRIDGE, County
Kildare. Ex-POW in attendance. Info from Siobhan on 087-9579743
DESMOND GREAVES SUMMERS SCHOOL: Commencing Friday 24 August, in
Dublin. More details next week
HUNGER STRIKE ANNIVERSARY BUSES: DUBLIN: Departing Sunday 12
August, 9.30am, Ringsend Church, 9.45am Widow Scallan's, Pearse
Street, 10am Municipal Gallery, Parnell Square. Taille #7 return
From CAVAN TOWN to the National Hunger Strike March, Belfast.
Cost #4, tickets must be booked in advance. Info from Cavan SF,
39 College Street or Cavcan '81 Committee, 049-4373510 or
087-9443899; Rostrevor 81 Hunger/Strike Committee are organising
a bus to Hunger/Strike March in Belfast on Sunday 12 August. Bus
will be leaving Hilltown at 11.30am Pick up points: Rostrevors
Warrenpoint. Tickets #5 Under 18's free. Contact numbers for more
information: Hilltown: Paddy O'Hare TEL 40631298. Rostrevor:
Gerry Donan TEL 41738003: Annie Sloan TEL 41738633: Those
travelling by car, allow 39 minutes extra time to get to the
march; FERMANAGH Buses going from the following areas. Derrylin:
11am--Mountain Hotel. Newtownbutler: 10.30am, Parish Hall.
Donagh:10.45 am, Donagh Bar. Lisnaskea: 11am. The Bank Brae.
Enniskillen: 11am, Rooneys Shop. Belleek: 10.30am Jolly Farmer.
Garrison: 10.50am, Main St. Belcoo :11.15am, Clancy's Shop
FUNDRAISER: Featuring Gerry Brown and the Stubliners. Friday 24
August, Gray's, Newmarket Street, DUBLIN. Taille #5
FLEADH CEOL WEEKEND: Commencing 10.30am Saturday 25 August, Mass
in St Mary's Church, LISTOWEL, County Kerry in memory of the
Hunger Strikers. Followed by parade to the Old Graveyard for
plaque unveiling. Culminating in opening of North Kerry Sf Ofice
in Market Street at 1pm. More info next week
HUNGER STRIKE COMMEMORATION: Cainteoiri: Owen Carron and Coireail
MacCurtain. Assemble 7.30 Saturday 25 August, Kennedy Bridge,
Rossa GAA park and march to monument in square, SKIBERREEN,
County Cork. Youghal RFB will head march. Commemoration will be
followed by Oiche cheoil agus amhrean in Cellar Bar, various
local musicians singers and followers of republican
commemorations to participate .Organised by Cumann Francis
Hughes, Sinn Fein
HUNGER STRIKE MEMORIAL MARCH: Assemble 3pm Sunday 26 August,
Devonshire Arms Hotel, YOUGHAL, County Cork for march to 1798
Memorial Park. Speakers: Eoghan Mac Cormaic and Gerry Kelly. RFB
in attendance
SF FUNDRAISER: Featuring Bik McFarlane and Cruncher O'Neill as
Tuan. 8.30pm Saturday 8 September, Decie's Country Bar, Decies
Road, BALLYFERMOT, County Dublin. Taille #5
HUNGER STRIKE ANNIVERSARY MARCH: Assemble 12 noon Sunday 23
September, Speakers' Corner, Hyde Park, LONDON, England and march
for rally to Trafalgar Square. Speakers: Gerry Kelly (SF), Dennis
Goldberg (sentenced with Nelson Mandela) and john McDonnell
(Labour MP). Also reps from Turkish hunger strikers and music.
Organised by the '80/'81 Hunger Strike Commemoration Committee,
BM Box 6191, London WC1N 3XX. Tel/Fax 020-8442-8778
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RMD1010817125634u18
The problem with certain sections of the US is that they don't understand the REALITY of the situation and are too caught up in the romance of the 'old country'. We have LIVED this situation for years now. You may have this idealistic notion that this is some sort of freedom fight, that the IRA are the knights in shining armour come to save the day. Well it isn't and they are not.
They are vicious thugs, they prey on their own as well as protestants and they are the major source of illegal narcotis into the whole of Ireland. They rule by fear and intimidation and are, in fact, no better than the mafiosi of 1940's USA.
If, heaven forbid, they became the major party in Ireland, they would enforce a socialist regime - and we all know how free they are.
As for the news, over the past 30-odd years criminal acts have been carried out by all sides. Do you want a list of IRA atricities too, perhaps some news reports.
Even if the RUC DID know about the Omagh Bomb, you missed the most important questions. Who planted it? Who set it off?
It certainly seems to have missed the fact that the IRA, in spite of several agreements, and the release of several hundred convicted terrorists, has yet to hand over one ounce of plastic explosive.
But hey, we have nothing to fear from these upstanding members of the community.
Do we?
The first step towards freedom for both is for all to accept the fact that they can and should go about their business armed and equpped as they see fit.
I really see the problem as a stepchild of the english who occupy NI and when they pack it in and leave the Irish will find their own peace...if the english settlers in the Irish territories choose to remain and be Irish then acomodation is likely...after all, the queen's soldiers make such splendid 'targets' for the propagandists.
I do apologize for the long post...will figure out how to cut these things down to a managable size when I use them. Actually, I don't post them here so much for english consumption as for others, US, or otherwise to pick up on...many read this board.
Diesel
88888888
I suggest you do a bit more research into the actions of the SAS, both in NI and in Ireland proper. Yes, reprisals.
Are you suggesting there are NO ethnic Arabs in Israel? The same applies.
Reprisals? Obviously I have missed something. When have the SAS killed a member of the IRA in cold blood, actually gone looking for that person with the sole intention to kill them - an assassination, you might say?
If this truly had been policy, don't you think that the whole organisation would have been decapitated, it entire leadership 'erased'?
When was the last gunship attack on an Irish city? When have the British EVER dropped bombs on Ireland?
The RUC (and the 'intelligence' agencies) on the other hand... did actively persue people, that I cannot deny - it has been documented. However, I DID say 'fullest extent' - by that I mean all out assault, all of those who were incarcerated would have been dead. They have now been released.
As for the ethnic settlements, before a single Jew moves into an area of Israel the entire Palestine population is moved out. Israel practises ethnic cleansing (not to the extent that Serbia or Hitler did) but they move out all 'undesirables' before moving their own settlers in.
The two may have similarities but they are not the same.