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Family wins 'right to life' case for severely disabled baby

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    nightmareish really

    the boy's brain is fully functioning and thus in respects he sleeps and is awake etc, it's just the rest of his body's muscles don't function to the point he cannot breathe anymore

    the doctors shouldnt be forcing it through court however his parents should realise there isnt much hope
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    The result is death, but it is a passive process - letting nature take its course, if you will.

    Everything about modern medicine is about NOT allowing nature to take it's course.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Everything about modern medicine is about NOT allowing nature to take it's course.
    cf euthanasia.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What's your point?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A lot of modern medicine is palliative care, I'll grant you that. But sometimes just because something can be done (e.g. permanent artificial ventilation), it doesn't mean it should. It is possible to keep this child alive by artifical means and his parents enjoy interacting with him. Fine. But would it be wrong for parents in a similar situation to request that the life support is ended? Would the parents be guilty of killing their child in that case? Should doctors go to court to ensure that a child is kept alive?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Can you think of a single example of it happening that way round?

    On euthanasia, I don't personally consider that anything to do with medicine, it's an execution, no matter what people call it, or who wants it.

    It's also not legal in most countries in the world and it's definatly not legal here, where this court case was decided.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Can you think of a single example of it happening that way round?
    Yeah. A young child develops spinal muscular atrophy type 1 and the parents agree that the life support should be ended.
    On euthanasia, I don't personally consider that anything to do with medicine, it's an execution, no matter what people call it, or who wants it.

    It's also not legal in most countries in the world and it's definatly not legal here, where this court case was decided.
    :confused:

    We're not talking about euthanasia here, this case is about withdrawing futile medical interventions.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Actually, you brought up euthanasia. So less of the confused emoticons.

    You've given an incomplete example, parents may agree that life support should be terminated, but can you give the complete example of them requesting it?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Actually, you brought up euthanasia. So less of the confused emoticons.

    You've given an incomplete example, parents may agree that life support should be terminated, but can you give the complete example of them requesting it?
    I don't understand the basis of your argument. If the parents had agreed to end life support, would they have been wrong? Would they have been responsible for "killing" their child?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Your arguement is a little academic isn't it? Can you think of anyone who loved their child seriously agreeing to their life-support being terminated if they possessed full cognitive ability?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Your arguement is a little academic isn't it? Can you think of anyone who loved their child seriously agreeing to their life-support being terminated if they possessed full cognitive ability?


    so your saying if they decided to turn off life support, that they dont love their child or they're stupid?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm saying there isn't an example.

    I personally would find it difficult to believe that parents who genuinely love their child would allow them to die while that child were fully cognitive.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    I'm saying there isn't an example.

    I personally would find it difficult to believe that parents who genuinely love their child would allow them to die while that child were fully cognitive.

    but won't the child be relying on its parents to look after them all the time? (I'm talking about when most children are old enough to do most things by themselves)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes, he will. But then many disabled people rely on other people to help look after them, you aren't seriously suggesting that they're lives should be terminated too, after all some of them don't even have the full cognitive powers that Child MB.
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    The parents are just being selfish, imho.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That's certainly one way of looking at it. Personally I disagree, they already have two sons, all this result means for them is several years of hardship, emotional distress and sacrifice. The easy thing to do would be to walk away.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    That's certainly one way of looking at it. Personally I disagree, they already have two sons, all this result means for them is several years of hardship, emotional distress and sacrifice. The easy thing to do would be to walk away.

    but alas, as is the case with many things in life, regardless of suffering, people dont always do something because its right or wrong, they do it because they can
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Your arguement is a little academic isn't it?
    No, absolutely not.
    Can you think of anyone who loved their child seriously agreeing to their life-support being terminated if they possessed full cognitive ability?
    Had the parents in this case been in agreement with the doctors, the child's life support would have ended. People with "full cognitive ability" will still die if the rest of their body cannot support life. Most people who die will have full cognitive ability until their death. So, again, would the parents have been wrong to agree with the doctors and have the machines turned off?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Yes, he will. But then many disabled people rely on other people to help look after them, you aren't seriously suggesting that they're lives should be terminated too, after all some of them don't even have the full cognitive powers that Child MB.

    No I'm not. I know someone (IRL) who has to rely on someone to look after her because she is unable to do anything (practically, anyway) for herself.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    Had the parents in this case been in agreement with the doctors, the child's life support would have ended. People with "full cognitive ability" will still die if the rest of their body cannot support life. Most people who die will have full cognitive ability until their death. So, again, would the parents have been wrong to agree with the doctors and have the machines turned off?

    I would never blame parents who agree with their doctors, you're supposed to be able to trust your doctor to advise you on the best course of action, the one which will benefit you and the patient the most, and provide the best posible scenario. I would say that the doctors would be wrong for suggesting it.

    While I was thinking, it occured to me that in almost every other situation where a person retains full congnitive (or even partial cognitive) ability the same doctors would be fighting for their life. In the case of a road accident, in the case of serious illness like a major case of flu or pnumonia, kidney or liver failure, heart disease and cancer.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    IIn the case of a road accident, in the case of serious illness like a major case of flu or pnumonia, kidney or liver failure, heart disease and cancer.
    Initially that is certainly true, but there comes a point at which the reality that the prognosis is bleak must be realised. All of the above situations are fatal to some and survivable to others, and quality of life has a role in the decision of whether to treat aggressively or not.

    The court has decided that the child's life is worth living and that is fair enough if we accept the case put forward by the parents, but not all parents would agree and so to pass the buck to the doctors and say that they shouldn't have suggested switching off the life support systems is just a lazy argument.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Only because I am not willing to judge parents when I have never been in their position. It's not really an arguement anyway, this is all based on my own perspective of the value of human life.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i still don't get why its ok to stop a babies treatment whos in this condition but when older people basically develop the same sort of thing where their bodies don't work anymore but they're still alive mentally...they have to continue recieving treatment if they want to or not...very often they just want to die with dignity but they can't.
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