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HAMAS visit Russia!
Teh_Gerbil
Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4769112.stm
God you people are slow at this stuff. Fine, I'll post it
Thoughts? I think it's a good idea - refusing to meet or deal with them, like US, UN, and Israel is, (All the same anyway, those three) will only make matters worse and furthur alienate the people of Palestine. Those lots told them for ages to have a fair election, they do - so those hipocrites turn around and say "No, you voted for someone we don't like! Boo hoo, we won't play anymore!". I hope Russia can suceed in helping resolve this issue, unlike the twats we are relying on in the West.
God you people are slow at this stuff. Fine, I'll post it
Thoughts? I think it's a good idea - refusing to meet or deal with them, like US, UN, and Israel is, (All the same anyway, those three) will only make matters worse and furthur alienate the people of Palestine. Those lots told them for ages to have a fair election, they do - so those hipocrites turn around and say "No, you voted for someone we don't like! Boo hoo, we won't play anymore!". I hope Russia can suceed in helping resolve this issue, unlike the twats we are relying on in the West.
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The Israeli's seem to have trouble with the boundries of their "country"... they don't know where it is, and they went and built the wall through Palestine mostly! Do'h!
Back to Hamas, yes of course the solution is to negotiate. I've lost the count of the number of times Hamas has now said it'd be prepared to reach a permaenent peace agreement with Israel if the Israelis are prepared to do the right thing and return to 1967 borders.
No surprise the Israelies don't want to negotiate... :rolleyes:
What happens next depends upon the elections, Kadima will presumably win but it'll largely depend on the shape of their coalition.
CORRECTION: Israel has withdrawn from Gaza and a couple of microscopic, insignificant outposts in the West Bank, and that's it. On the other hand they have approved the building of hundreds of new houses in several extensions of the illegal settlements that are dotted across Palestinian land like an ever-growing malignant tumour.
So in fact they have stolen far more land than they have returned!
Some commitment to peace!
Thankyou, I think I might save a link to this to link to those who keep on claiming Israel is making moves towards peace.
Of course negotiation is the answer... but, it makes me think... the west must REALLY want the Middle East to be unstable. Our hipocracy has been shown, our true intentions outed... and look! The Media IGNORES it... showing they are but control. We refuse to negotiate and make progress, in every way, proving the terrorists right on this subject matter.
Damn, its shocking.
I've said that illegal settlements are like a tumour: an unwelcome, foreign development growing everywhere and poisoning the region.. And they are. And more to the point, many Israelis themselves agree.
Only the most twisted and nasty fanatic could possibly defend the existence of such outposts. The settlements are the single biggest obstacle to peace in the region; a cynical plan to steal yet more land from the Palestinians by annexing large chunks of Palestinian land to Israel forever.
Of course, that they are mainly populated by the most unpleasant kind of ultra-zionists and fundamentalists (the kind who actually believe the totality of Palestine belongs to the Jewish race as per God's command) doesn't help either. In a way I'm not surprised some Israelis are not interested in dismantling them. Few would want their inhabitants as their neighbours.
Back to the topic of Hamas visiting Russia, i think it is great, i think everyone should be negotiating with them and indeed ALL terrorists. Especially those commanding suicide bombers sending them off believing they are going to go to paradise heaven, i say we need to make some counter offers to them...
"What's Allah offering you? A hundred Virgins? We'll give you fifty Slags! Or two women from Dundee!" (BBC2 Mock of the Week)
You’ll actually find that many Jewish settlers in the Disputed Territories are new immigrants and live there because it’s cheap.
There are over 1.2m Arabs in Israel, they enjoy the same rights legally as Israelis and for most Israelis it’s not a problem. Meanwhile just over 200,000 Jews live in the West Bank and it's a massive problem for Israel’s critics. Israeli settlements only even make up just under 2% of the West Bank. I accept, in future peace negotiations there will have to be some compromise on settlements but their importance is frankly exaggerated.
Tbh the more I think about it the more sure I am that Israel should not make any concessions on the West Bank until the Palestinians make real moves towards peace. With Gaza in anarchy following the Israeli withdrawal, increasing rocket attacks, Hamas getting elected and no Palestinian moves towards the disarming of terrorist groups now isn’t the time to talk about withdrawing from the West Bank. Indeed I hope Netanyahu performs well in the coming elections.
So if Spain invaded and settled 2% of Britain, you'd have little issue, because lots of Brits live in Spain with no problems? There is no exageration, its is ILLEGALY occupied and settled Territory, just like Northern Cyprus.
The world choses to ignore both, it seems. Action should be taken in both cases, and should have been taken LONG ago.
There have been PLENTY of opportunities for peace. Most of them broken, by the Israelis. This is a fact. End. This has been pointed out many times.
Dis's own blind and unyielding adherence to that ideology continues to demonstrate itself in his disregard for easily verifiable two-class citizenship as well as the proclamations of intent by successive Israeli icons from well before the founding of the state to the present.
"Disputed territories" being but one example of the intractible double standard he holds when it comes to condemning Israel for the very same anti-democratic (outright fascist) practices - which are central to its militant ideology and history of terrorism and human rights abuses - he claims to abhor when practiced anywhere or by anyone else. Always the ready excuse of self defence for Israel, but never for the much more brutalised Palestinians.
The new rally cry for the anti-democratic pro-Israeli shills. They didn't vote in people we could corrupt and manipulate to maintain the decades long status quo - people who would not dare fight back against the ongoing and well planned incremental conscription of increasingly more viable land (and water rights) ever at the heart of Israeli policy - therefore we wont recognise nor respect their sovereign will, even though they are demanded to recognise Israel's right to elect hardline butchers and terrorists as heads of state themselves.
Yitzhak Rabin (Haganah)
Manechem Begin (Irgun)
Yitzhak Shamir (Irgun)
Shimon Peres (Haganah)
Ariel Sharon (Haganah)
All with direct involvement in terrorist organisations responsible for acts of violence against unarmed civilians, but Dis hasn't the intellectual honesty to apply consistency of principle and the requisite condemnation for the extremist ideology in which these organisations (only to evolve into the Labor and Likhud Parties we know today) were and remain rooted.
Its always the victims' fault in his warped worldview. No surprise.
Hamas is not just a terror group, it has political, religious, social care and communications divisions, to mention but some. Thats like saying Irish Republicans are all terrorists. Some people join Hamas because of the work they do feeding the poor and homeless in the territories. Some join it to blow up Israelis. Some do it because they want to see a unified Palestine and feel a strong religious (rather than nationalistic) commitment.
The more Hamas are pulled into political issues, the more untenable the militia arm will become. They will be forced to give them up sooner or later, because political pressure will translate into lost votes, which wont please the political wing.
But as you mentioned it, Hamas did start out as a Terrorist organisation based on the use of violence they have just evolved since then into a political group. It is not even remotely the same as calling all Irish Republicans terrorists.
Uhuh, well how about backing up that statement with some facts? Yes, there have been plenty of opportunities for peace. In 1937, the Royal Peel Commission offered a two state solution; a larger Arab state and a smaller Jewish state. The Yishuv gratefully accepted, the Arabs refused. In 1947 again, the UN Partition Plan endorsed a two state solution; the Yishuv again accepted – the Palestinians with the surrounding Arab states decided to wage war rather than tolerate two states. There’s been many other opportunities for peace since, in some cases succeeding as the peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan display but I’m not going to go into detail and rehash a history of Israeli-Arab/Palestinian relations to compensate for your ignorance, you should be capable of doing some research yourself.
Tbh it’s pointless discussing this with you at the moment. It’s clear from everything you’ve ever said on this subject that you’ve read little (if anything) and all you really ever do is make big blanket statements and never support them with evidence.
Hamas’ attitudes towards women aren’t dissimilar to the Taliban. Hamas advocates executing homosexuals. Hamas has incited violence against Palestinian Christians. Funny but I thought the left supported minority rights...I wonder why Socialist-affiliated Palestinian ‘solidarity’ organisations are defending Hamas then.
The covenant of Hamas clearly rejects any two state solution advocating the complete and total destruction of the Jewish state. While comparisons between Hamas and the IRA are interesting lets make one pretty easy distinction between IRA terrorists and Hamas terrorists – the latter follow a completely fanatical religious ideology that is completely alien to any rational person. Hamas suicide bombers think they’re getting 72 virgins... :rolleyes: Now sure the IRA was/is full of some pretty crazy people but the religious fundies in Hamas are in a different league.
Regardless of what you provide he will in further threads merely return to the same arguments and soundbites discredited previously. It's basically the mantra of a zealot, and as you see above, there can be no discussion when facts get in the way of his delusionally seamless creed. Every bit, in fact, the very mindset he condemns Hamas (or any other extremist ideological group) for having.
He certainly wouldn't dare acknowledge the Stern Gang's offers to ally with Nazi Germany against the British Mandate authorities in exchange for Nazi promises to help them secure Palestine. How embarrassing for the mythical history of perpetual victimhood that such a group was involved in the founding of the state. Interesting that some its units managed to incorporate into the IDF (rather than the political evolutions of the Haganah and Irgun).
Certainly does explain the gleeful barbarism of the IDF against Palestinian women and children that has been standard practice, however underreported, for generations.
Just a thought.
First off, the area the settlements sit on, added to surrounding "security" perimeters and roads linking them to Israel amount to rather more than 2%. Moreover, they fragment Palestine even more into a series of isolated ghettoes that can never form a meaningful State.
And if the settlements are not of much importance, why don't the Israelies piss off to Israel then? Nothing significant to leave behind, is there?
Yes, you would because deep down you seem to wish to keep as much stolen land as you can get away with. That you aren't even capable of admitting the land is stolen (by your comical insistence in calling Palestine the 'Disputed' Territories when even the most pro-Israeli zionist cheerleaders call them by their real name) goes to show that.
And for all your wishes for peace in the region, clearly you would rather things stayed as they, or even got worse as they will if the ultra-right wing scumbag Netayahu gets in, if it means the stolen land remains in Israeli hands.
I am not, myself and the rest of the board have had discussions with people like him before, and present facts and dates and incidents (I think Dis has already been linked to these) which have been ignored. If he choses to ignore the facts, it is his fault.
I am against Terrorism. Which is why, whilst the Palestinians are FAR from innocent, the Israeli's are far worse, which is why they piss me off. They have never wanted peace - if they did, perhaps they wouldn't keep breaking peace agreements and maybe give back stolen land!
HAMAS, thanks Cain, is more than "Terrorists" - they have done more for the Palestinian poor and the refugees than anyone. No-one can deny the good they do, which far outwieghs the militant section. And I am glad for palestine - perhaps having a government with balls will do them some good!
Even though i am to the Right, rather then the Left of the political Spectrum, i do have to find myself comletely in the middle of this argument and not to either side of it.
Diss, has his arguments and shows great knowledge of history and facts, But then again, so does Clandestine on this issue as does Aladdin too.
I guess, the thing that botheres me is the complete lack of anyone (Except Aladdin who has totally shown a willingness to do so) to actually argue their position forward. Mostly it is Diss stating his beliefs then Cland and Gerbil just saying he is wrong and ignorant, but not showing why, or showing a counter argument. You are all (again with the exception of Aladdin) as bad as each other for ignorance and failing to back up your arguments. Stop claiming the arguments are old and been done already then refuse to make an argument on that ground. This is a new thread, so its all new an fair game.
Try debating.
Me, im in the middle on this until someone actually argues...except Aladdin who has done so successfully! Yep, im leaning Aladdin's way for now...
A two state solution leaving Israel firmly in the hands of unceasingly grasping Zionist ideologues - whose very ideology is rooted in the same notions of group exceptionalistic superiority that gave rise to other monstrous state systems within living memory - will never be viable. It will never be viable for the following reasons:
1. Neither the prevailing insitutionalised Zionist mentality in Israel nor in Washington would allow for a contiguous state with its own necessary sovereign claim to scarce water resources in the region.
2. Neither Israel nor Washington would dare permit a parallel sovereign state to construct and maintain its own institutionalised defence capabilities. The disposition of such status quo state capability would prevent Israeli PR-gurus from further characterising any and all reprisals for the near daily, unreported, brutalities by the IDF, as "terrorism" to justify the actual expansionistic "greater israel" vision, so central to the Zionist agenda.
3. A state of peace with its neighbours would ultimately undermine all justifications for the generations long extortion of billions of US taxpayer dollars annually, to prop up an otherwise stagnant Israeli economy. The perpetual victimhood ethos allows US policymakers the ready excuse for such obscene outlays - regularly made without any requisite demands upon Israel to account for its actions - when questioned by those who do make the effort to remain vigilant on these matters.
No, I submit to you that the rhetoric employed by Washington and Israel is heavily laden with alterior meanings, ie. double speak, and actually seeks acceptance from Palestinians and their leaders for an institutionalised subjugation not self-determination. Another reason why, despite verifiable wails of corruption against Fatah for years, we now see that Fatah was illegally funded by Washington to the tune of nearly 2 billion dollars in the last election to try to buy them back into power.
Only a complete rejection of the governing Zionist ideology by Israelis, an acknowledgement of the generations of intentioned ethnocidal brutality, dispossession and dehumanisation by the Israeli state and its successive leaders (former leaders of terrorist organisations themselves), an embrace of TRUE pluralistic democratic principles and equal rights for all peoples Jew and non-Jew alike will allow for lasting conciliation between the oppressors and the oppressed and herald a creative shared future for all involved.
I said as much repeatedly, though unsurprisingly to the chorus of expected reactionistic attacks by our resident ideologues who simultaneously claim to believe in principles of democracy. Apparently they are ready to abandon all consistency of principle where this oddly exceptionalistic state entity is concerned.
The problem though is that there is an inherent built in flaw to the concept of a two-state, equal sovereignty nation. The basis of of the creation of a Jewish state that is Israel comes from the Zionist doctrine of 1897 where the idea was first formed and put into print. It is the definition of the Jewish people been unable co-habit with Gentiles.
Therefore, based on its own principles of its creation it can never accept a sub-state with in its boarders.
Israelis have dislike of the Arabs who did nothing with a nation but left it a desert.
Palestinians have dislike of the Jews who came to the land and built cities and Irrigation and life.
It is a 100 year old conflict, pre-dating the existence of the State itself.
No this is the is the ideologically extremist notion posited and reinforced at great expense and effort for generations by the Zionist movement. It is as much a betrayal of the religion upon which it plies its manipulative fairytales as it is of all noramtive principles of pluralistic democratic principle.
This is a revisionist myth perpetuated by the Zionist PR machinery and inculcated into tthe generally accepted status quo text book understanding of Pre-state conditions.
In reality, a substantial indigenous population had worked the land for centuries and had supported themselves quite well.
As for cities, this is a modern after the fact argument which sidesteps the nature and origins of the conflict itself. If the WWI powers had honoured their vows of support for the indigenous nationalist aspirations of the Arab populations, they too would have modern cities and infrasturcture today. That they have had nothing but consistent disenfranchisement, dispossession and brutality as their lot at the hands of both Israel and its Washington counterparts, is precisely why they continue to live in bantustan conditions today.
http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html
I will gladly supply further detailed analyses if you wish, but better if you follow up and research the topical citations contained in the above for yourself.
see, i knew there was a conspiracy around somewhere