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Reasons why the voting age needs to be lowered

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  • independent_independent_ Community Champion Posts: 9,030 Supreme Poster
    edited September 18
    meila wrote: »
    Past User wrote: »
    GreenTea wrote: »
    I don't have a duty to fulfill as a mid 20 year old female. I'm just living every day as it comes like Millions of unmarried mid 20 year olds. If anything I'm offended by your comment about being mid 20s and not fulfilling society or whatever. History has moved on from that sexist approach.
    Don't get how being married would affect who I vote for. I vote who I want to vote. Nobody is going to decide for me

    Clearly we disagree on what your obligations toward society are, then, but this is only natural. I hope you can consider this in the capacity that I meant it - which is that of a political discussion. If you were offended I hope you don't consider it a comment directed toward you personally as it most certainly wasn't.

    Perhaps being married wouldn't change who you vote for although I imagine it would in the case of many women. Firstly your husband would be able to provide you the moral guidance necessary for you to remain an upright individual, and to make reasonable decision. Women aren't capable of going life alone - they should be under the headship of a male guardian.

    @Past User I cannot believe you said that last paragraph. AGAIN, you need to state things like this as OPINIONS, not FACTS. "Women aren't capable of going life alone" needs to be prefaced by "I think".. My lord.
    Man, I really don't think you realise how offensive you are being here. Women need men for moral guidance? For making reasonable decisions? Headship of a male guardian?
    Ay, I hope you are a troll, because if this situation of sexism was reversed here, only then would you would understanding the agony of someone undermining your capacity as a human being.

    This 100% @Past User I do hope you’re trolling and just have nothing better to do with your time
    Post edited by TheMix on
    “Sometimes the people around you won’t understand your journey. They don’t need to, it’s not for them.”
  • Former MemberFormer Member Deactivated Posts: 23 Boards Initiate
    edited September 18
    meila wrote: »
    @Past User , you say: " how is not letting women vote simply because they are women immoral? We don't let children vote only because they are children - we don't let the intellectually disabled vote only because they're disabled."

    As a VERY simple answer to this, women neither have the mental capacity of children or those with intellectual disabilities. Women and men have the SAME intellectual abilities. It's that simple. If men are "suitable" enough to vote, then women are too.

    you also say "Conditions on voting exist, and everyone here is in agreement that they should continue to. People simply like to pretend as if voting is a right for everyone (when it isn't), because this means they don't have to confront the very reasonable arguments that suggest voting should be further restricted."

    Now I partly agree with this, voting does need to be restricted for the sake of a structured society. But women are as valuable as men, do you not agree? The woman who birthed you, raised you, and voted for bills that would favour your upbringing, is now being slapped in the face by their own child. I don't think you completely realise what you're saying, quite frankly.

    you say: "My comment on people earning concerned men who don't pay tax. They should be prevented from voting for the same reason women who aren't married should be - which is that their situation isn't one that's of benefit to society. People should contribute to society and be of benefit to it, in order to have a say in how it operates. Otherwise, why shouldn't I be able to vote in the Indonesian elections or the US elections? Again, most people agree with the premise here (that social contribution should be necessary), but won't admit to it."

    So men's 'benefit to society' is paying tax, and women's is marriage. That is your opinion? Honestly? This stance would only ever make sense of both conditions applied to both genders; so men paying tax and married, and women paying tax and married. (which even then, I don't agree with). I know some amazing women who chose not to marry or have kids, you know what they do instead? They fix your broken bones, they help you through bereavement, and they build society just as much as men. MARRIAGE DOES NOT EQUAL BENEFIT TO SOCIETY. To even attempt to measure how much of a benefit someone is to society by if they're married or not is not only limited and binary, but ignores the human condition.


    Do I still consider your position sexist? Yes. I do. In a way, perhaps to both sexes! You vastly oversimplify and define what is deemed a "contribution to society"by gender roles....A contribution is a contribution. Not genitals.


    “As a VERY simple answer to this”…
    The overlap that exists between intelligent women and not-so-intelligent men exists in the same way between intelligent children and not-so-intelligent adults. If intelligence is what you’re using to measure the suitability of someone to vote, then surely children who are as intelligent as adults should be able to vote.

    But how does (in your view) the ‘same’ intellectual ability of men and women mean that no other factor whatsoever should preclude women from voting without this being an *immoral* decision? As I told GreenTea:

    “Perhaps being married wouldn't change who you vote for although I imagine it would in the case of many women. Firstly your husband would be able to provide you the moral guidance necessary for you to remain an upright individual, and to make reasonable decision. Women aren't capable of going life alone - they should be under the headship of a male guardian.”

    “Now I partly agree with this, voting does need to be restricted for the sake of a structured society….”

    I agree women are just as valuable as men but their purpose and position in society are different. Voting restrictions should reflect this – so that the order of society (which should include women seeking marriage) is maintained. Where do you think I’ve not understood what I’m saying?

    “So men's 'benefit to society' is paying tax, and women's is marriage. That is your opinion? Honestly?”…

    Men and women both benefit society in as individuals and as their ‘sex’ in innumerable ways! What I mean is, that these are the positions that reflect / help create a properly ordered society. An unmarried woman can surely contribute to society in individual ways (“fix broken bones” etc), but she has failed to accept a ‘position’ that perpetuates social order. Marriage is absolutely essential to society if it to continue existing. If marriage didn’t exist, society could not either. This is why encouraging women to marry is so important.

    The requirement for men should be tax and the requirement for women should be marriage (not “both conditions applied to both genders”) because men and women are not the same. Refer back to my paragraph on how the husband provides guidance.
    Post edited by TheMix on
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 83 Budding Regular
    edited September 18
    @Past User ,
    I would kindly ask that you now remove yourself from the platform.
    You have continually expressed opinions as facts, and sexist opinions in that which are routed in lowering a woman's place in society. Your position isn't about how men and women have different roles, because by removing the right to vote, you have inherently, yet again, devalued the worth of women. I- and quite frankly the others here- are sick of it.
    Please go somewhere where people want to listen to your sexist opinions including a woman losing her right to vote just because she's a woman who has periods, being confined to marriage, being incapable of making decisions without a man, and needing a man above her for guidance. These opinions are not welcome here. This site is a place of support and warmth, not restriction and hate.
    Please leave, thank you.
    Post edited by TheMix on
  • Former MemberFormer Member Deactivated Posts: 23 Boards Initiate
    edited September 18
    Past User wrote: »
    If I wanted everyone to agree with me then I wouldn't be on the politics forum! @independent_

    Yes I think you're incapable of making a worthwhile vote.

    If being 'informed' is enough, should a 7 year old that rote-learned political information be able to vote? Or, as I suggest, shouldn't a necessary amount of life experience also be required? Adult experience should absolutely be necessary. A teenager, as I've described, doesn't have this.

    "Every adult regardless of [this and that] should be able to choose who represents them". Why exactly?? And why do you consider age (as opposed to paying taxes for example) the qualifying factor for who should be able to vote? And why should the age of an 'adult' be considered 16?

    I think further conditions should be placed on women or people who don't earn if they want to be able to vote.

    Being given responsibilities that you may or may not be prepared for doesn't justify giving further responsibilities (in this case the responsibility of voting) without further consideration. 16 year olds cannot get married or join the army without parental consent and they can't consent to medical treatment if they haven't been advised to do so by a doctor.

    Actually @Past User 16 year olds can marry without parental consent in Scotland. And absolutely nobody regardless of age can consent to treatment without being advised to by a doctor.

    By the time someone is 16 they’ve had around 11 years of education. They likely have access to social media and news outlets, so they will be far more informed than a 7 year old could ever be. That comparison just isn’t worth your energy.

    So, at the age of 18, I have studied politics, I look at the news every day. I am not in education anymore, I’m on benefits, and I have no plans to marry in the near future. I have experienced many of the things that are campaigned for in government, I use the NHS, I have been through the benefits system. And you think that just because I am female and unmarried, none of that counts?

    Sexism has no place here. And that’s what you are, in a single word. Sexist.

    Your comment on medical treatment is accurate, which rather undermines the point you were originally making. If nobody is capable of consenting to medical treatment without it being advised, then the matter of 16 year olds consenting to it as if this isn’t still dependent on the decision and approval of adults [the normally 25+ y/o doctor] becomes quite irrelevant.

    The marriage law changes depending on location. Scotland seems to be the ‘exception’ in the case of the UK. In other countries 13 and 14 year olds can marry… ‘responsibility’ being given to young people elsewhere doesn’t mean that entirely unrelated rights should be given to them here. Even if we were to suppose that 16 year olds were all capable of making a decision on marriage – why should this mean that this be extended to voting? (refer back to my last comment to you).

    Please re-read my point about being ‘informed’ not being sufficient. I totally accept that a 16 year old has had more education than a 7 year old – but this makes no difference to the argument I’ve actually put forward.

    You express yourself as if I consider your life experiences and so on entirely unvaluable. I don’t think this is the case. -But yes, I don’t think any of that counts in relation to the question of voting. Please address my reasoning on the matter of why being married should be the ‘qualifying factor’ 😊

    What part of my comment is sexist? In relation to the very last point, a man could list off countless life experiences and I would similarly preclude him from the vote if he fails to meet my criteria. My opinion on voting places conditions on both men and women.
    Post edited by TheMix on
  • independent_independent_ Community Champion Posts: 9,030 Supreme Poster
    edited September 18
    Past User wrote: »
    Past User wrote: »
    If I wanted everyone to agree with me then I wouldn't be on the politics forum! @independent_

    Yes I think you're incapable of making a worthwhile vote.

    If being 'informed' is enough, should a 7 year old that rote-learned political information be able to vote? Or, as I suggest, shouldn't a necessary amount of life experience also be required? Adult experience should absolutely be necessary. A teenager, as I've described, doesn't have this.

    "Every adult regardless of [this and that] should be able to choose who represents them". Why exactly?? And why do you consider age (as opposed to paying taxes for example) the qualifying factor for who should be able to vote? And why should the age of an 'adult' be considered 16?

    I think further conditions should be placed on women or people who don't earn if they want to be able to vote.

    Being given responsibilities that you may or may not be prepared for doesn't justify giving further responsibilities (in this case the responsibility of voting) without further consideration. 16 year olds cannot get married or join the army without parental consent and they can't consent to medical treatment if they haven't been advised to do so by a doctor.

    Actually @Past User 16 year olds can marry without parental consent in Scotland. And absolutely nobody regardless of age can consent to treatment without being advised to by a doctor.

    By the time someone is 16 they’ve had around 11 years of education. They likely have access to social media and news outlets, so they will be far more informed than a 7 year old could ever be. That comparison just isn’t worth your energy.

    So, at the age of 18, I have studied politics, I look at the news every day. I am not in education anymore, I’m on benefits, and I have no plans to marry in the near future. I have experienced many of the things that are campaigned for in government, I use the NHS, I have been through the benefits system. And you think that just because I am female and unmarried, none of that counts?

    Sexism has no place here. And that’s what you are, in a single word. Sexist.

    Your comment on medical treatment is accurate, which rather undermines the point you were originally making. If nobody is capable of consenting to medical treatment without it being advised, then the matter of 16 year olds consenting to it as if this isn’t still dependent on the decision and approval of adults [the normally 25+ y/o doctor] becomes quite irrelevant.

    The marriage law changes depending on location. Scotland seems to be the ‘exception’ in the case of the UK. In other countries 13 and 14 year olds can marry… ‘responsibility’ being given to young people elsewhere doesn’t mean that entirely unrelated rights should be given to them here. Even if we were to suppose that 16 year olds were all capable of making a decision on marriage – why should this mean that this be extended to voting? (refer back to my last comment to you).

    Please re-read my point about being ‘informed’ not being sufficient. I totally accept that a 16 year old has had more education than a 7 year old – but this makes no difference to the argument I’ve actually put forward.

    You express yourself as if I consider your life experiences and so on entirely unvaluable. I don’t think this is the case. -But yes, I don’t think any of that counts in relation to the question of voting. Please address my reasoning on the matter of why being married should be the ‘qualifying factor’ 😊

    What part of my comment is sexist? In relation to the very last point, a man could list off countless life experiences and I would similarly preclude him from the vote if he fails to meet my criteria. My opinion on voting places conditions on both men and women.

    Oh ffs it does not undermine my last point. It doesn’t matter what age someone is in this consent to treatment context. Doctors are professionals so regardless of the age of the patient, we trust them. And I would trust a younger doctor as much as an older one.

    You are one person. Why should your opinion be considered fact when actually everyone else’s here is just as valid?

    Tbh I agree that this really isn’t the platform for you. I’m not going through every point you’ve made and arguing it because frankly I can’t be bothered and it will fall on deaf ears.

    Marriage isn’t everything. Neither are taxes. Other experience is just as, if not more, valuable when making decisions on voting. @Past User
    Post edited by TheMix on
    “Sometimes the people around you won’t understand your journey. They don’t need to, it’s not for them.”
  • Former MemberFormer Member Deactivated Posts: 23 Boards Initiate
    edited September 18
    meila wrote: »
    @Past User ,
    I would kindly ask that you now remove yourself from the platform.
    You have continually expressed opinions as facts, and sexist opinions in that which are routed in lowering a woman's place in society. Your position isn't about how men and women have different roles, because by removing the right to vote, you have inherently, yet again, devalued the worth of women. I- and quite frankly the others here- are sick of it.
    Please go somewhere where people want to listen to your sexist opinions including a woman losing her right to vote just because she's a woman who has periods, being confined to marriage, being incapable of making decisions without a man, and needing a man above her for guidance. These opinions are not welcome here. This site is a place of support and warmth, not restriction and hate.
    Please leave, thank you.


    There are still outstanding responses that you and others have asked me to make. If you would not like to continue participating in this conversation then you’re welcome to make this known, and I’ll leave your comments toward me unanswered.

    How is it fair for you, however, to ask me to “remove myself from the entire platform” simply over my disagreement with you in a single forum post – on a topic that is clearly listed that you choose to participate in?

    As the guidelines state, you should expect to be disagreed with; and my comments fall all of the relevant rules about conducting myself respectfully and so on. It’s quite disappointing, actually, to see you asking me to remove myself over your personal dislike for the position I’m supporting.

    It’s quite disrespectful of you to tell me that I’m wrong about what my own feelings are. I’ve expressed, clearly, that I don’t think women are less valuable than men; their different positions in society simply mean that they’re valuable in different ways.

    I’m not being ‘hateful’ by any means and I’m afraid to say that it is only you that has (although only now) been ‘hostile’ on this forum post. If this is a place for warmth, why am I being personally attacked for respectfully sharing my opinions on a part of the forum specifically made for this purpose??

    What a shame!
    Post edited by TheMix on
This discussion has been closed.