Home Politics and Debate

American spin

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
has any1 else realised the babarity of american propaganda these days, there's almost a biblical sense to bush's speeches, "we will crush the servants of evil", does it ever occur to him that HE is the evil, it always annoys wen they say "operation liberate iraq" more like "operation get all their oil". Rumsfeld has connections with major texan oil companies, coincedence?, i'm so glad it's all blown back in their faces, where's the WMD now bush and all you neo-con americans out there

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There are no WMD and we knew it all along, it just goes to show he is the evil...the root behind it all, don't believe the propaganda.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    go check out my last post in the "FAO...." thread. I put a link in there that shows clearly what the agenda has been from the start.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: American spin
    Originally posted by turlough
    has any1 else realised the babarity of american propaganda these days, there's almost a biblical sense to bush's speeches, "we will crush the servants of evil", does it ever occur to him that HE is the evil, it always annoys wen they say "operation liberate iraq" more like "operation get all their oil". Rumsfeld has connections with major texan oil companies, coincedence?, i'm so glad it's all blown back in their faces, where's the WMD now bush and all you neo-con americans out there

    The New Christian Right... we're studying them in sociology.

    Do you know that the reason America are working with Israel to keep the Palestinians out is because they believe that if they help the Jews will convert to Christianity and once that happens... well apparently in the Bible it says there'll be Jesus's second coming or something...

    In some parts of America there's a stigma attacched to not going to chruch.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Re: American spin
    Originally posted by MoonRat
    The New Christian Right... we're studying them in sociology.

    Do you know that the reason America are working with Israel to keep the Palestinians out is because they believe that if they help the Jews will convert to Christianity and once that happens... well apparently in the Bible it says there'll be Jesus's second coming or something...

    In some parts of America there's a stigma attacched to not going to chruch.

    Jesus's second coming....where abouts did you see this in the bible?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Maybe 50 years ago Moonrat
    In some parts of America there's a stigma attacched to not going to chruch.

    Don't leave me in suspense!

    Exactly what part of America would that be?

    Have you ever visited America, or are you basing this absurdity on a text book or a whacked out professor?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If Bush and the Americans were truly evil they would occupy Iraq and take what they want. I don't believe that is happening.

    The basic operational theme is to strike before one is attacked. Had this been done to Mr. Hitler I am sure there would have been no second world war. Americans feel the world is not interested in their safety and well being.

    Questions... Do you think people in Iraq are afraid of the Americans? Why would the American President ask for 87 Billion dollars to rebuild Iraq? Why would the Americans want to establish democracy?

    If the Americans were truly evil they would just occupy Iraq and thumb their noses at the world. Yhey would take the oil and kill anyone who stood in their way. What nation or nations would or could stop them?

    As for WMD...they could be hidden anywhere. Were all the western intelligence agencies wrong for more than 10 years? I don't think so.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Maybe 50 years ago Moonrat
    Originally posted by Bandito
    Don't leave me in suspense!

    Exactly what part of America would that be?

    Have you ever visited America, or are you basing this absurdity on a text book or a whacked out professor?

    Actually it was a documentary on the BBC and it's not a political group, but a term used by sociologists to describe right wing Christian fundamentalism. Just like they called the Thatcherites the 'New Right'.

    As for the stigma, the program said it was on the Bible belt, that everybody was expected to go to chruch. In the town that George Bush grew up in apparently there're 300 churches. Some parts of America are extremely religious which is the point I was making... some schools won't even teach Darwinism.
    Jesus's second coming....where abouts did you see this in the bible?

    A lot of churches and sects believe in the second coming of Jesus and it says he'll be back in the Bible, I know, I used to be a Christian. hell, some sects even base their life around the second coming of Jesus, just look at the Moonies!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Moonrat

    You know I live in the Bible Belt. I haven't been to church in years, and I am not stoned by zealots, ostracized or even stigmatized.

    And yes in America there are some extreme religious group like the Unification Church, and even Amish and Mennonite Communities. However, they are on the fringe of society here and if there is a stigma it is attached to them.

    Freedom of religion is guaranteed by the US Constitution. That is why we have such a diversity of religions, and we are free to choose which we wish to participate in, if any at all.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Murph Redux
    If Bush and the Americans were truly evil they would occupy Iraq and take what they want. I don't believe that is happening.
    No? What about the fact that the Iraqi oil is now being run by American firms and that American firms are making a profit on Iraqi oil? What about the fact that almost all of the reconstruction contracts have gone to American firms? America is making a huge profit on Iraq, if there was no profit from Iraq they wouldn't have invaded.

    The basic operational theme is to strike before one is attacked. Had this been done to Mr. Hitler I am sure there would have been no second world war. Americans feel the world is not interested in their safety and well being.
    So am I therefore entitled to go down my High Street pepper spraying everyone because one of them could be a mugger after my mobile phone? The fact is that the policy of containment was working, the UN said so, Tony Blair said so, even Condeleeza Rice said so. The trouble with dealing with Hitler in the 1930s was that the peace imposed on Germany after WWI was vindictive and so Germany did have a case for some of their policies and also men like Chamberlain were determined not to lose more lives - surely a better idea than the current Bush admin thinking that it doesn't matter how many people die so long as Bush gets what he wants? On the contrary, the world is interested in America's safety and well being, hence why we want you to actually do something about it instead of launching attacks on unrelated countries. You could make a start by finding Osama bin Laden and using the intelligence services to actually shut down Al-Qaeda. Incidentally, the war on Iraq has actually made it easier for terrorists to operate in Iraq with the break down of law and order.
    Questions... Do you think people in Iraq are afraid of the Americans? Why would the American President ask for 87 Billion dollars to rebuild Iraq? Why would the Americans want to establish democracy?

    1) Yes, wouldn't you be frightened of a nation which set out to bankrupt you for over ten years, bombed you repeatedly killing thousands of your fellow citizens and then invaded and are now found to be a bit too trigger happy killing many more innocent people.
    2) The $87 billion was to keep the American occupying force running in Iraq and indeed to provide the resources to expand it. The rebuilding is being mortgaged against Iraq's oil and so the revenues from Iraq's oil will go into the pockets of American firms for the reconstruction.
    3) They don't. The US has dragged its heels as long as possible on the subject of creating real democracy in Iraq. It's only under pressure from France and Germany and the rest of the international community refusing to let America run the show that they've had to promise to create democracy so that they can try and get international help.

    If the Americans were truly evil they would just occupy Iraq and thumb their noses at the world. Yhey would take the oil and kill anyone who stood in their way. What nation or nations would or could stop them?

    That seems to be exactly what is happening. And no-one can stop you, more's the pity.

    As for WMD...they could be hidden anywhere. Were all the western intelligence agencies wrong for more than 10 years? I don't think so.
    The Iraq survey team have been out there for hundreds of days and they were preceded by the UN inspectors - neither group has been able to find "even minute traces of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons" I quote that from their leaked draft report. There were WMDs in Iraq but the UN got rid of them until they were expelled in 2000, there is absolutely no evidence of WMDs even "weapons programmes" ie; plans for WMDs. The CIA were wrong on September 11th, they're probably wrong on this as well.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Moonrat
    Originally posted by Bandito
    You know I live in the Bible Belt. I haven't been to church in years, and I am not stoned by zealots, ostracized or even stigmatized.

    And yes in America there are some extreme religious group like the Unification Church, and even Amish and Mennonite Communities. However, they are on the fringe of society here and if there is a stigma it is attached to them.

    Freedom of religion is guaranteed by the US Constitution. That is why we have such a diversity of religions, and we are free to choose which we wish to participate in, if any at all.

    Certainly in the cities there is a freedom of choice - simply because they're too big for people to really notice who goes to church and who doesn't.

    I have a friend who emigrated from London to a small town by San Francisco and he told me that the local community all went to church on Sunday and his family were made to feel like outsiders because they're Hindu - in fact one church even tried to convert him!

    He now lives in Houston, Texas (your neck of the woods isn't it Bandito? :)) but I haven't had chance to find out whether his situation has improved or not there.

    Fact is America is overwhelmingly Christian and that Christian population is much more church going than the Christian population in Europe so it effectively means that Christianity is the national religion and so if you aren't a Christian you are more outside normal society than you would be in Europe.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Re: Moonrat
    Originally posted by kevlar85
    Certainly in the cities there is a freedom of choice - simply because they're too big for people to really notice who goes to church and who doesn't.

    I have a friend who emigrated from London to a small town by San Francisco and he told me that the local community all went to church on Sunday and his family were made to feel like outsiders because they're Hindu - in fact one church even tried to convert him!

    He now lives in Houston, Texas (your neck of the woods isn't it Bandito? :)) but I haven't had chance to find out whether his situation has improved or not there.

    Fact is America is overwhelmingly Christian and that Christian population is much more church going than the Christian population in Europe so it effectively means that Christianity is the national religion and so if you aren't a Christian you are more outside normal society than you would be in Europe.

    The point I was trying to make, aye.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Re: Re: Moonrat
    Originally posted by MoonRat
    The point I was trying to make, aye.

    Aye, just thought I'd back you up with some personal experiences. :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kevlar95,

    I have not heard of any American oil companies making profits in Iraq. The information here is that the oil is not flowing in any appreciable amount.

    Are there any companies from the UK engaged in the rebuilding?

    As for the people being afraid of us a recent poll in Iraq shows 62% are glad we came. All in all it is probably a mixed bag. Saddam did however use WMD's at Halabja in order to subdue the Kurds. The Marsh Arabs were also decimated.

    As for American companies.......I am afraid that most companies today are multi-nationals. My local water company here in the states is owned by the French Company SUEZ. The tires on my Japanese car are made by a French Company and the gas I put in the car recently came from an English concern!

    We would have had Osama early on but our Pres at the time dropped the ball I'm afraid. More important is that Afghanistan is progressing. Women can now go to school and recieve medical care. Villages are being rebuilt and efforts are underway to make the country safer.

    As for AL-Qaeda, they are here in the states. Rumour has it that they might even have biological weapons or tactical nukes in country. A scary thought I can tell you. While the Germans were treated terribly at the Versaille treaty negotiations there was no excuse to start a war of naked aggression. Mr. Churchill recognized the evil that was Hitler and put a stop to him, albeit with Russian and American aid.

    War is so different now than in those days. The weapons used are so much more deadly and efficient.(God help us!)
    I don't believe any nation can wait to be struck. Therein lies the paradox. In order to protect myself against violence I must use violence.

    I think British intelligence taking out IRA terrorists in pre-emptive strikes is a good example of what I am talking about. Why are British troops in Northen Ireland? There are terrorists there who have made attacks on major cities in the Uk resulting in billions of pounds in damages. Is it not a good idea to take out the terrorists before they can attack. Granted the IRA has not been very active in the past few years but the principle remains the same. Would the UK attack first if it suspected another nation was getting ready to kill thousands of it's citizens? I would hope so?

    The costs in lives and economic damage can be staggering if terrorists are left unchecked. I support BUsh on attacking first.
    Americans are living on the front lines as folks in the UK have been for years. Americans might react in ways that those in Europe don't understand.

    In the end I guess I have to respectfully disagree with you. American safety is paramount in my mind. I watched the towers fall and that sort of thing can never be allowed to happen again.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Murph Redux
    Kevlar95,

    I have not heard of any American oil companies making profits in Iraq. The information here is that the oil is not flowing in any appreciable amount.
    That's now, I'm talking years to come. When the oil is running freely again it will be managed by American firms such as Halliburton which has strong links with Vice President Cheney and many of the oil firms who bankroll the President's election campaigns. (And it's kevlar85 please :))

    Are there any companies from the UK engaged in the rebuilding?
    I think there are one or two but the overwhelming majority are American. Why should it matter? It would be just as wrong in my eyes for my country to profit from the war as it is for yours.

    As for the people being afraid of us a recent poll in Iraq shows 62% are glad we came. All in all it is probably a mixed bag. Saddam did however use WMD's at Halabja in order to subdue the Kurds. The Marsh Arabs were also decimated.
    There are lies, damn lies and statistics - I heard about that opinion poll, the 62% was in response to "Are you glad Saddam Hussein is no longer in power?" not "Are you glad the Americans are here?" They are two completely different questions. Saddam used those chemicals on the Kurds in 1988 - fifteen years ago. We in Britain were sold the war on the basis that Saddam's current weapons posed an imminent threat to British interests - not true. You in America were sold the war on the basis that it would be fighting Al-Qaeda - also not true.

    As for American companies.......I am afraid that most companies today are multi-nationals. My local water company here in the states is owned by the French Company SUEZ. The tires on my Japanese car are made by a French Company and the gas I put in the car recently came from an English concern!
    Multi-nationals still have parent countries, most of these firms are American owned. Doesn't matter if they have offices in Baghdad, Brisbane or Basildon they are still answerable to American commercial interests.

    We would have had Osama early on but our Pres at the time dropped the ball I'm afraid. More important is that Afghanistan is progressing. Women can now go to school and recieve medical care. Villages are being rebuilt and efforts are underway to make the country safer.
    Don't you believe in finishing a job you started? You chased him away what do you think he's doing now? Hasn't taken up gardening or croquet you know, he is still a threat and he is still plotting against the West. So instead of launching illegal and immoral wars why isn't your government (and mine for that matter) hunting him down?

    As for Afghanistan progressing, there is little medical care for anyone to recieve as they are still heavily dependent on tiny amounts of aid. Except for Kabul most of the country is lawless, run by the local warlords. Also drug production there has reached record levels - hardly a ringing endorsement is it?

    As for AL-Qaeda, they are here in the states. Rumour has it that they might even have biological weapons or tactical nukes in country. A scary thought I can tell you. While the Germans were treated terribly at the Versaille treaty negotiations there was no excuse to start a war of naked aggression. Mr. Churchill recognized the evil that was Hitler and put a stop to him, albeit with Russian and American aid.

    If they are there in the States surely it would be better for your government to track them down instead of warmoungering and illegally occupying sovereign nations? Rumours put out to frighten you. Churchill was dismissed all round as an eccentric crank until the war started, fact is until Hitler hit Warsaw he was just taking back what had been German territory and so Chamberlain and others thought he had a case. You cannot use hindsight to justify what people did at the time.

    War is so different now than in those days. The weapons used are so much more deadly and efficient.(God help us!)
    I don't believe any nation can wait to be struck. Therein lies the paradox. In order to protect myself against violence I must use violence.
    So therefore is it okay for Al-Qaeda and Palestinians to use violence to protect their interests before they are attacked? Was it okay for Hitler to invade Poland or Saddam to invade Kuwait? Violence begets violence and leads to a hideous cycle in which more and more people suffer and die - look at the Israel/Palestine situation for confirmation of that.

    I think British intelligence taking out IRA terrorists in pre-emptive strikes is a good example of what I am talking about. Why are British troops in Northen Ireland? There are terrorists there who have made attacks on major cities in the Uk resulting in billions of pounds in damages. Is it not a good idea to take out the terrorists before they can attack. Granted the IRA has not been very active in the past few years but the principle remains the same. Would the UK attack first if it suspected another nation was getting ready to kill thousands of it's citizens? I would hope so?
    If you are talking about the Thatcher government giving permission for the SAS to use a shoot to kill policy on the IRA in Gibraltar in 1988 - that was totally immoral. These men were only suspects, as democracies we must hold true to our founding beliefs and liberties and give these people fair trials - if not we stoop to their level and lose the very things we're fighting for. The IRA used to attack our cities so the government used to use harsh tactics on them like you advocate - the result was a continuing cycle of violence and thousands of deaths. It was only when we negociated with them and treated them like human beings that we broke the cycle of violence and all benefitted. That is why the IRA has not been active in the past few years - not the harsh tactics you advocate. I would hope my government would improve our defences and get international support to discourage another nation from attacking us rather than launching illegal invasions of other countries - which gives them the perfect excuse to attack us.

    The costs in lives and economic damage can be staggering if terrorists are left unchecked. I support BUsh on attacking first.
    Americans are living on the front lines as folks in the UK have been for years. Americans might react in ways that those in Europe don't understand.
    If you support Bush in attacking first you therefore logically support Al-Qaeda attacking first. You can't have it both ways, if you attack first, other countries will just adopt that strategy.
    My dad worked by the place where the IRA Bishopsgate bomb exploded in 1993, thankfully it was a weekend, when he got to work on the Monday after all the windows in his bank were shattered. I don't like to think what could have happened had it occurred on a weekday. I believe Americans are frightened and this is stopping them from logically working out the consequences of their actions. You are not stopping Al Qaeda, in fact you are playing into their hands, you are showing muslims that America is attacking them and so driving thousands of new recruits to Al Qaeda.

    In the end I guess I have to respectfully disagree with you. American safety is paramount in my mind. I watched the towers fall and that sort of thing can never be allowed to happen again.
    I hope you'll see the sense in what I'm saying. I watched the towers collapse too, thats why I want to make sure it never happens again or in London. That's why I will point out what your government and mine should be doing to stop terrorism - Iraq was not part of that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kevlar85,

    Terribly sorry about the misspelling of you name!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    murph redux, its funny that i was makin a post about american spin and u come in a fill the pages with this spin, everyone has an opinion on the war but if u were to forget u were american and all that crap about patraotism and actually looked at the war and all thats happened, u wud come to the same conclusion as us, its all one big shambles, y wud america care if iraq had WMD's n e way, none wud have the distance to hit american soil, bush admitted sadam had nothin to do with 9/11. yes i admit hundreds of thousands of iraqis were kiled under his regime but lets all be honest, were u lying in bed losing sleep over the fact that iraqis were being sluaghtered, i doubt it. the war on iraq was a rushed reaction to 9/11 some1 had to pay, bush culd've picked any of the dictators around the world but picked iraq because of its geographical postion, far from us and close to al qaeda, its weakness as an army, small compard to north korea, i wish every1 wud just open their eyes and think for themselves and not what america is telling them to think... and yes america is makin profits from the oil contrary to what you heard,
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Actually Iraq and Saddam were in the crosshairs of members of the administration for more than a decade. Dubyah's own angst on the issue amounts to little more than personal vendetta for a failed assassination attempt on his daddy after he left office.

    The real string pullers (Perle, Wolfowitz, and Feith) knew that they had the perfect opportunity to spin this agenda into action once the nation had been thoroughly traumatised by 9/11.

    After the big event, they knew full well that the media was in their back pocket and that the lines of distinction between legitimate response to terrorism and use of our military machinery to advance corporate and geo-political elite interests (especially a strong Israeli-centric agenda) in the region would be as easy as a stroll in the park.

    Judging by the tenacity with which, even now, most right wingers refuse to conced the truth that is patently clear to the vast majority of the world population, it appears that corporate media lies, omissions, and contrivances achieved their planned ends brilliantly.

    Sadly, reality has not and will not vindicate them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turlough,

    With all repsect I am not spinning a blessed thing. I am expressing my opinion. WMD's were used on Iranian soldiers. Many of those soldiers were sent to European hospitals to confirm the fact that Saddam had used VX, Mustard, and other gas weapons as well. Saddam has quite the track record for using WMD's. Halabja and the slaughter of the MArsh Arabs are other examples.

    I think you'd find the majority of Americans share my opinions.

    One no longer needs a large conventional force to inflict great damage on a percieved enemy. The Al-Qaeda aim is not to conquer America conventionally but rather to destroy its economy.

    It is only a matter of time before they strike again, I fear, and there may well be thousands of casualties. The majority of Americans will not place their faith in the UN for our well being. I know people who were killed in the Towers. Our government will do whatever is necessary to protect its people.

    I have arguments with my cousins in the UK who hold your opinion about the war. I am American by birth and English by the grace of God. I just hold a different view of what is occurring. I don't try to encourage anyone to believe as I do. I'm only stating what I believe and why.

    As for patriotism, yes, guilty as charged!

    As an aside, how long would it take the US military to crush the North Koreans? Not long. We are trying to solve the issue peacefully.

    While we respect our European neighbors we will do what we feel best protects us. That will cause a great deal of anger but there you have it. We will just have to disagree with each other on this one!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Actually Murph, more and more Americans are waking up from the unquestioning malaise and turning against this admin and its lies and sanitised historical accounts and seeking the fuller picture on world affairs which includes the direct complicity of members of this administration in those very gas attacks the right wing loves to drag up.

    Like every other spun out issue, the full truth leaves the unquestioning camp to answer the question, what then is the punishment for direct criminal collusion in genocide?

    Shall we have Rumsfeld & Cheney shot, hanged, or imprisoned down in Guantanamo?

    True Patriots care about our nation and its long term wellbeing, Neo-cons are sycophants, not patriots.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kelvar85

    Quote:
    Certainly in the cities there is a freedom of choice - simply because they're too big for people to really notice who goes to church and who doesn't.

    I have a friend who emigrated from London to a small town by San Francisco and he told me that the local community all went to church on Sunday and his family were made to feel like outsiders because they're Hindu - in fact one church even tried to convert him!

    He now lives in Houston, Texas (your neck of the woods isn't it Bandito? ) but I haven't had chance to find out whether his situation has improved or not there.


    Certainly in a smaller town you may find some reluctance to accept an eastern religion like Hindu for example. America is still mostly Christian after all. However, I don’t believe you’ll find much intolerance directed at the individual who just doesn’t attend church at all. A church community may try to convert them as well. That’s what churches do after all.

    Even in small communities you are likely to find a varity of different churches to choose from.

    Texas is a big state, sir. By our measurement Houston maybe in my neck of the woods, however by European standards it may be considered a little further than that. (Approx 250 miles).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    murph redux, you say sadam has used WMD before and i agree but i think he got rid of them before the war, u also say u know ppl in the two towers, i know many ppl killed in the troubles in northern ireland yet george bush doesn't come with aid here, george bush doesn't even have a clue what terrorism is, he has this whole fixed idea what terrorism is and feeds down your throats and you all gulp it down like children, i know what terrorism is, i was threatned to be shot before, my best friend was abducted and beat up wen he was 12 by the IRA, theres a whole side to terrorism rite now u haven't got a clue about and then u try to tell us what it is, grow up and face the facts, terrorim is nothing new and one man in a white house won't do a little bit of difference, in congo millions of ppl were and are being killed in the civil war, were's the social outcry there, i don't see no mass invasion of congo to sort this out, oh but america gets attacked lets blow up afghanistan, this world is so messed up rite now its unbelievable
Sign In or Register to comment.