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And this isnt a war for commercial gain?

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
Anyone watching CNN International has probably already noted that this is the long awaited opportunity not only for the major media giants to roll out all the hollywood gimmickery in their arsenals but more pointedly that practically every report is laden with glaringly inappropriate showcasing of US military hardware.

And yet the pro war faction continues to delude themselves that this is all about the moral platitudes of "liberating" Iraqis (notwithstanding the fact that as predicted Turkey has invaded the Kurdish area and is fully intent on dismantling their nascent democracy) as well as punishing Saddam.

The weakness of such pious claims becomes more transparent with each passing hour and each glowing promo for this or that weapons platform (complete with price listing).

All this coming from the administration which has repeatedly villified numerous other countries for arms proliferation. The hypocrisy and greed of Washington and its MIC knows no end! Just wait till the puppets are in place and see who assumes control over all Iraqi oil production. It wont be the Iraqi people you can bank on that.

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru


    http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030321-023627-5923r

    "A group of American anti-war demonstrators who came to Iraq with Japanese human shield volunteers made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders present. Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality." Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists. Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head."

    Seems that even the most rabid anti-war protestors who get a view of reality within Iraq are being liberated from their oppressive ignorance.

    Too bad the clandestine-collaborator cannot be liberated from his.

    But then...

    Perhaps...

    It just might not be ignorance, but a determined clandestine-collaboration with the enemy...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Globe
    Seems that even the most rabid anti-war protestors who get a view of reality within Iraq are being liberated from their oppressive ignorance.

    Oh yeah?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Once again Thanatos, you sidestep all the pressing issues to cloak your reasoning capacities in wonderfully emotive rhetoric and platitudes.

    Noone dismisses the attrocities of the Iraqi regime, however unlike narrow minded pro war flag wavers like yourself, the anti war faction sees that there are considerably broader issues and forces in play here, many of which have to do with our own culpability in creating and arming such regimes in the first place.

    Moreover, the hypocrisies of our foreign poilices, and the systematic transformation of our armed services from their role as national defenders to that of a convenient mercenary force to be employed at the whims of big business interest in complete disregard for international law are issues which you and your ilk wish to turn a blind eye to whilst filling yourself full of arrogant self righteousness.

    These facets of the overall issue of war and militarisation are only a small part of the overall roster of wrongdoing perpetrated by Washington in its renewed sense of empire which will in due course undermine the belief in our moral superiority and inevitably lead to a decline which neither you nor those who demonstrate a similar incapacity for self evaluation and self accountability will be prepared to deal with.

    What goes around comes around and when it does youll be jolted out of your smug self assurance and forced to recognise that we are not the guardians of truth, justice, freedom, etc.. that you delude yourself into thinking we are.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But you fail to explain the two key points: why this fascist dictator, and why now?

    Why didnt the US and UK do anything about, say, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, or Augusto Pinochet? Why didnt the US finish saddam off in 1991, or, better still, allow the Shiites ot do the jobn for them as they have been begging to since 1991? If Bush is so against evil torturing dictators, why arent we bombing Musharraf of Pakistan into a million pieces; why arent we picking on the Myanmese junta, who are even worse than Saddam?

    Or, even better still, why dont you try and justify the Americans arming saddam in the first place, or arming Pinochets brutal regime, or training the death squads of Nicaragua and El Salvador?

    No anti-war protestor wants saddam in power, but we dont believe the war is justified on any of the reasons listed. Because the US arent consistent- whilst bombing Hussein up, BAe, with the full consent of the UK and US governments, are arming Ariel Sharon with even more potent weapons to blow up innocent Palestinians, inluding women and children. As we speak we are torturing hundreds of Arabs in Cuba, using the methods Hussein used, but no-one complains about that. we dont see Bush bombing himself because he is a fascist dictator, without any popular mandate.

    Its the hypocrisy, nothing else.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well put across Kermit!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit,

    After the Vietnam War, started when Truman helped the French regain Indo-China after WW II, the American people did not want their government to get involved anywhere for any reason!

    Once 9/11 occured the American people felt that it was time to reach out and be pre-emptive.

    Clandestine, the Iraqi people have never and will never own their country's oil. The same holds true for Americans.

    Wake up folks you are fighting the wrong battle and with the wrong enemy!

    By the by kermit, the ACLU would never allow torture to happen and regular inspections of the prisoners health and well being are conducted regularly. The climate in Cuba is just heavenly though!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I am guessing that the shareholders of the major maerican oil companies are mainly: American? :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Indeed Toad, and some of the Board members of some of those companies just happen to be in the US Administration, imagine that!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Murph the Surf
    Kermit,


    Once 9/11 occured the American people felt that it was time to reach out and be pre-emptive.
    well thats bollox murph. i have mentioned it on here before.
    on bbc's radio 4, a couple of weeks before 9/11 ever happened, a senior figure from pakistani inteligence was confirming that, yes he had it on good authority that the u.s were going to invade afghanistan soon.
    in the late 1980's the u.s were reffering to afghanistan as the jewel and iraq the prize! these things have been in the pipeline (no pun intended) for years. they have sod all to do with 9/11.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kermit
    ... we dont believe the war is justified on any of the reasons listed.

    Of course, you prefer to believe in the conspiracy theory that 'it's ALL ABOUT THE OIL", and disregard http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=564&ncid=716&e=11&u=/nm/20030324/ts_nm/iraq_chemical_weapons_dc as just some "baby formula plant" built with sand cast walls (to complicate satelite photography), guarded by Iraqi soldiers in NBC gear, overseen by an Iraqi general. :rolleyes:

    To accept that it is a CHEMICAL WEAPONS FACTORY would suggest the SMOKING GUN, and make all of your rhetorric baseless and banal.

    Besides helping to put the sock puppet of Baghdad out of his comfortable job. ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    CNN has been showing the good and bad of war. To me it took away any romantic notions about going to war...even though I appreciate the troops fighting for my freedom.

    In terms of financial gain. It's valid to say that's part of the reasons for the war. It's not valid to leave out that your country and those you admire Clandestine are totally about financial gain. Right down to French companies selling spare parts to Mirage jets and Gazelle Helicopters, and pestisides for chemical warfare and Russian companies selling Goggles for military actions at night. That's where your credibility shows. You don't criticise your country too.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The troops are not fighting for your freedom pnj...

    And I hope you don't really believe, regardless of how often Rupert Murdoch's Fox News and NYP tell you, that the French have sold Iraqis pesticides for chemical warfare...

    As for the spare parts, well the Iraqis are by all means allowed to have an air force. The French sold them these parts while there was no war so like it or not there is absolutely nothing wrong with this.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin, they were sold in 2003. The Russian company sold the goggles last week on March 21st.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I criticise my government consistently pnj, thank you very much! ;)

    And Thanatos, noting that the sources of your linked report were pnj's fave right wing trash news service, Fox, as well as the Jerusalem Post (and of course they're not slanted press :rolleyes: ) added to the fact that there is no verification of what the plant is, you have no basis for your mindless pontification.

    Just another victim of the media brainwashing machine you are, that much is plain to see.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
    Aladdin, they were sold in 2003. The Russian company sold the goggles last week on March 21st.

    Well no one forced the US and Britain to go to war. The UN certainly didn't authorise it and the fact remains that when France sold them those parts there was no war between Iraq and the US and Britain.

    I don't know about the Russian company selling them goggles but they've just found evidence of a British company that might have sold equipment to Iraq. Does that make Britain a 'traitor'?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Globe


    Of course, you prefer to believe in the conspiracy theory that 'it's ALL ABOUT THE OIL", and disregard http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=564&ncid=716&e=11&u=/nm/20030324/ts_nm/iraq_chemical_weapons_dc as just some "baby formula plant" built with sand cast walls (to complicate satelite photography), guarded by Iraqi soldiers in NBC gear, overseen by an Iraqi general. :rolleyes:

    To accept that it is a CHEMICAL WEAPONS FACTORY would suggest the SMOKING GUN, and make all of your rhetorric baseless and banal.

    Besides helping to put the sock puppet of Baghdad out of his comfortable job. ;)

    Yes, but why now? Hes had them since 1985, the US sold them to him, and it was all hunk-dorey until he attacked poor defenceless Kuwait and not the big nasty Iranian scumbags. And besides which, if you can show me just how the hell he will get the NBC TO the US or UK, given his supposed links to Al Qaeda have been proven groundless, then Ill be impressed. He could hit Israel, just about, but, quite frankly, thats none of our concern.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Actually Kermit, it was hunkey dorey until Saddam nationalised the Iraqi oilfields, even before the Kuwait invasion. The invasion of Kuwait was just a snide little backroom set up which Bush Sr. duped Saddam into so he could justify invading. That he didnt complete the job the oil companies were pushing for is why we are back at it again in the Bush family sequel.

    The realities of the middle east power plays stretch back to British colonial times and Kuwait itself is nothing more than a pampered autocracy established by Britain to ensure access to the Gulf region. That it was carved out of Iraq and that Kuwait was invaded for slant drilling (i.e. stealing) Iraqi oil are issues that the media conveniently hushes up about.

    I have little doubt what my own country would do, given its penchant for rabid protection of what it deems to be its own self interest (as clearly seen daily on tv now) if Mexico started syphoning off oil from Texas or Canada tried to do so in Alaska. You can be sure Washington would have several armoured divisions dispatched to put a stop to it. Yet let Iraq defend its interests and just look at how events can be manipulated to drive it to its knees.

    Just more hypocrisy to add to the history books.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I stand corrected:)

    But if you listen to Whowhere Mexico is part of the US anyway! *chortles*
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    arent you forgetting that bush & blair said the oilfields would not be used for american gain?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by duffy_2k
    arent you forgetting that bush & blair said the oilfields would not be used for american gain?
    come on duffy, it's british and american companies who stand to proffit. american companies already have the contracts for rebuilding. the lions share of those contracts going to the vice presidents companies. exactly...exactly the way the maffia operate in the building trade.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What they say and what they actual do are often completely different.

    MR has the right of it.

    Halliburton is cleaning house and Cheney is making a nice sum for his part. This is what you call cronie capitalism at its finest. Heck Bush made his own fortune through cronie capitalism and abuse of state power so he's holding true to form here as well (just on a far grander scale this time though).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    "Noone dismisses the attrocities of the Iraqi regime, however unlike narrow minded pro war flag wavers like yourself, the anti war faction sees that there are considerably broader issues and forces in play here, many of which have to do with our own culpability in creating and arming such regimes in the first place."

    Well said. Sometimes I find it hard to comprehend the fact that so many people are blind to the obvious hypocrisy that surrounds this war.

    This war will not secure international peace nor will it diminish anti-western sentiment in the middle East, contrary to what the Bush administration predict.

    Protecting American security? Hardly. Protecting financial gain? I think so.

    If this war was solely about finally ridding Iraq of this indisputedly evil tyrant and liberating Iraqi people then there wouldn't be so much opposition towards it. The fact is this war is about America establishing themselves as the global supremacy. I will not sit back and let the worth of human life be surpassed by greed and corrupt power.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by ElysiumUnknown
    [B

    If this war was solely about finally ridding Iraq of this indisputedly evil tyrant and liberating Iraqi people then there wouldn't be so much opposition towards it. [/B]

    I disagree with you there.

    No govt will wage a war to liberate a people except in the extreme case of genocide.

    The Bush admin would never have been able to convince the US to go to war solely to free a people, that is why they needed the WMD story, they need to show it is their own interests or many voters will not support it.........

    A sad negative aspect of democracies......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A little tidbit i stumbled across today which speaks further of the cash cow this war was intended to be for the US.

    http://www.golivewire.com/scripts/ikonboard/surf.cgi?news=1&url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/world/middle_east/2884145.stm&newsname=Coalition+accused+over+aid+to+Iraq&newsdesc=Iraq+says+Britain+and+the+US+are+blocking+food+and+medical+supplies+from+reaching+the+country.&forum=10

    I suppose on some level the argument that its not about oil might be true. Its about all sorts of contracts and cronie capitalism, not only oil.

    Notice how quickly the Bush camp consolidates its conquest of Iraq for exclusive US gain. Shows even more clearly that the brief pitstop of working through the UN was nothing more than an annoying delay in the long planned conquest.

    One day when the US is truly up the creek without a paddle you can bet the international community will have little cause to come rushing to our aid. Bush is making the bed, the nation is gonna have plenty of time to lay in it when the sun sets on our collective arrogance and presumption.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg


    I disagree with you there.

    No govt will wage a war to liberate a people except in the extreme case of genocide.

    The Bush admin would never have been able to convince the US to go to war solely to free a people, that is why they needed the WMD story, they need to show it is their own interests or many voters will not support it.........

    A sad negative aspect of democracies......

    That's my point. That the "liberation of Iraq" is just a facade for other reasons mostly to do with the interests of the US and has been used to rally public support.

    Not only a negative aspect of democracy but of western culture. We essentially live for ourselves as individuals. Am I right in remembering that the war on Iraq, or at least public awareness that war could be eventual, conicided with around about the first anniversairy of September 11th?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A bit before that maybe but certainly Iraq was not a major issue until 11/9...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Correction: It wasn't a major media issue till after 9/11.

    The plans for invading and conquering/controlling Iraq have been on the drawing boards for more than a decade. Hawks like Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz amongst others have consistently pushed for this invasion since Bush sr. packed up the troops from the original PGW.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Talking of Perle, quite a frightening and amazing article in the Guardian (yes the Guardian again :) ) on Friday

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,918764,00.html

    Worrying.........
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