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The death of accountability and criticism

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
This is one of the most articulately written and empassioned editorials on the current evasion tactics employed by the political elite in Washington who seem to forget the very principles of public debate upon which America was founded.

Thought id toss it into the ring as a signpost against the typical slanderous remarks often levelled at those of us with a dissenting view...

http://www.democracymeansyou.com/serious/anti-american.htm

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'd aggree with that, there seems to be a growing idea of with us or against us.
    A polarization of ideals, or at least an attempt at that, where if you dont think the war is a good idea then you must be a terrorist.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A good article, echoing some of my own sentiments
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: The death of accountability and criticism
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    ... evasion tactics employed by the political elite in Washington who seem to forget the very principles of public debate upon which America was founded...

    1. Wasn't that a poke at the US media reporting more than politicians?

    2. Hasn't this been going on for decades? See McCarthy, Vietnam protests etc.

    Other than that I would agree with the sentiments - a dissenting voice isn't necessarily a traitorous one...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Personally, I think it is hilarious that someone who defends Bill Clinton as a US President would post an article about the "Death of accountability and criticism". See, we Americans do get irony occassionally. :D
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    For all his faults Billy never set up an authoritarian police state nor enacted legislation which effectively betrays the very Constitutional liberties and rights of due process upon which our nation was founded that ol Dubyah has. Nor did he put a man with a record of seeking more Amendments to the Constitution to limit citizen's rights in his time in the Senate than all the amendements tabled in the 200 odd years since its ratification.

    You hold tight to your irony and Ill stick with the truth, something the military establishment has never been known to uphold.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why do right wingers in America hate Clinton so?

    Or does it just happen to every Democrat President but with this one you have the Monica Lewinsky ammo to throw around?

    In my view when the most serious accusation about an ex-President his detractors mention is that he cheated on the wife and tried not to get caught, that is a very good indication of how good the Presidency actually was.

    But I guess anyone who doesn't subscribe to the ultra right wing, militarist, free market, christian fundamentalist, anti-environment pro business agenda of the Republicans is not worth having.

    The thing that really gets me is that some idiots actually try to blame 9/11 on Clinton! If anyone or anything other than the terrorists is to blame it's the ever present right wing, aggressive unilateralist foreign policy that the Republicans are so happy to embrace and that has mighty pissed off more than 1bn people throughout the world.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There's tons of liberal views being heard in the US and most people are against a war without the ridicuous UN.

    Clandestine, you might enjoy not in our name. Tons of celebrities took out an expensive anti-war ad. Ran it in the NY Times etc. there's a website about the organization too.

    Jane Fonda is a member. Her, of all people.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin..

    Let's see...

    Clinton...

    Best known saying:

    "I did not have sexual relations with that woman"

    Accomplishments:

    Managed to get 19 soldiers killed by refusing requested support after he changed the parameters of the mission in Somalia.

    Managed to shoot a camel in the butt with a cruise missile after the bombing of the WTC.

    Talked lots about solving the IRA issue, and the Palestinian issue. In the end? Accomplished nothing.

    Ruled over the largest bubble economy in US history. Maybe he learned economics from the Thais or Japanese. The US economy (and therefore the world economy) is suffering the results.

    After the bombings of US Embassies in Africa...did nothing.

    After the bombing of the USS Cole....did nothing.

    Continually downsized the US military while increasing deployments to the point that military personnel rarely spend half a year at their duty post.

    And this is without Whitewater, the White House travel agency glitch, vandalizing the White House, the Health Care fiasco, his inappropriate relationship with an intern, or his impeachment for commiting perjury.

    Great Presidents either say or do great things. Clinton did neither. And his impeachment shows perfectly how badly he worked with Congress (only the 2d impeachment in American history...not a great precedent).
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Talked lots about solving the IRA issue, and the Palestinian issue. In the end? Accomplished nothing.

    Like many a Republican President before him and like GW today. At least Clinton made substantial progress toward lessening the conflict in an arena of extremists, who - like you - think the gun and the bomb are the only answer to everything wrong with the world.
    After the bombings of US Embassies in Africa...did nothing.

    After the bombing of the USS Cole....did nothing.

    Hey, just like the Reagan/Bush Administration after the gassing of the Kurds at Halabjah, imagine that! (only to make matters worse, the chemical weapons were supplied by the US as well).
    Continually downsized the US military while increasing deployments to the point that military personnel rarely spend half a year at their duty post

    How sad for you that Clinton should have cared about the red-lining deficit created by Reagan and subsequently Bush Sr.'s admins. He said he would bring the deficit down paving the way for more economic stability at home and my goodness, he did just that.

    Its about time we closed our bases and stopped trying to dictate to the nations of the world how they will be run. Maybe then we might actually make some substantial progress toward reducing global terrorism the right way, by acting as a responsible world neighbour instead of an authoritarian economic and military empire.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine


    Like many a Republican President before him and like GW today. At least Clinton made substantial progress toward lessening the conflict in an arena of extremists, who - like you - think the gun and the bomb are the only answer to everything wrong with the world.

    Substantial progress? Oh yes, really noticable in the "occupied territories", isn't it? :rolleyes:
    How sad for you that Clinton should have cared about the red-lining deficit created by Reagan and subsequently Bush Sr.'s admins. He said he would bring the deficit down paving the way for more economic stability at home and my goodness, he did just that.

    Its about time we closed our bases and stopped trying to dictate to the nations of the world how they will be run. Maybe then we might actually make some substantial progress toward reducing global terrorism the right way, by acting as a responsible world neighbour instead of an authoritarian economic and military empire.

    Kind of funny, actually. If Clinton cared so much about the deficit, why did he put forward that "National Health Care Plan"? Or did he just care about it when cuts came from areas he could care less about?

    As for the second paragraph, Clinton was responsible for more military deployments than any President since Nixon. Maybe you should think about that while you praise him.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Substantial progress? Oh yes, really noticable in the "occupied territories", isn't it?

    Nice dodge since we were talking about Northern Ireland and the IRA, or are you suffering from conflict induced memory loss? Perhaps youve been visiting the Golden Triangle a bitt too frequently and the opiates have taken their toll. :rolleyes:

    But to be fair, one can see that Clinton brought the process a damn site closer to settlement even in the Middle East, too bad Likhud never had any intention of making peace.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Greenhat
    Talked lots about solving the IRA issue, and the Palestinian issue. In the end? Accomplished nothing.

    The quote you used. Are you having a bit of problem with reading comprehension?

    Arafat also never had any intention of peace. And he never will. Peace would lose him his cause.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Still fails to acknowledge the point on Northern Ireland. how typical. :rolleyes:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    Still fails to acknowledge the point on Northern Ireland. how typical. :rolleyes:

    Actually, my original reply did. If you're smart enough to pick it up.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Most points have been replied to but can I add a couple
    Originally posted by Greenhat
    "I did not have sexual relations with that woman"

    Had the formidable Republican machinery not been set in motion in order to pursue to the very end what was in essence a completely pointless and irrelevant (non)story, Clinton would have not been placed in a position where he had to utter that sentence and lie. Had it been the other way around I wonder if the whiter-than-white Republicans would have given much of a shit if the President had been shagging around. Needless to say in most other nations the incident would have not gone further than some cheeky headlines in the tabloid press.

    Managed to shoot a camel in the butt with a cruise missile after the bombing of the WTC.

    As opposed to G.W. Bush who managed to drop 50,000 tonnes of high explosives after the 2nd WTC attack and still miss its target.


    Do you care to compare Clinton's presidency with Bush's so far?

    Enron, WorldCom, the Kyoto agreement, international relations and US image abroad at its lowest point in American history, the economy, a general feeling of corruption and favouritism, contempt for social care, etc, etc.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin

    Had the formidable Republican machinery not been set in motion in order to pursue to the very end what was in essence a completely pointless and irrelevant (non)story, Clinton would have not been placed in a position where he had to utter that sentence and lie. Had it been the other way around I wonder if the whiter-than-white Republicans would have given much of a shit if the President had been shagging around. Needless to say in most other nations the incident would have not gone further than some cheeky headlines in the tabloid press.

    Ah, a perfect example of the true death of accountability. The President of the United States commits perjury, and you claim it is other people's fault.

    Of course, my point was that his perjury is the most memorable line of his Presidency. Not much of a legacy for a man who wanted to be remembered in the same manner as John F. Kennedy.
    As opposed to G.W. Bush who managed to drop 50,000 tonnes of high explosives after the 2nd WTC attack and still miss its target.

    Both the Taliban and Al Queda have been significantly damaged. A great number of the higher positions in the hierarchy of Al Queda have been killed or captured. There is a fair possibility that Bin Laden is dead. Yep, great comparison.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Greenhat


    Ah, a perfect example of the true death of accountability. The President of the United States commits perjury, and you claim it is other people's fault.

    Where is your compassion, Greenhat? :eek:

    Don't you know? It was all of the pressure exerted by GWB that made Komrad Blow-job do the things he did! :rolleyes:

    If it weren't for Bush, then Klinton would be the upstanding pillar of righteousness that clandestine-collaborator believes him to be... :lol:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Greenhat

    Both the Taliban and Al Queda have been significantly damaged. A great number of the higher positions in the hierarchy of Al Queda have been killed or captured. There is a fair possibility that Bin Laden is dead. Yep, great comparison.

    Really? They seem very active and functional, and if half of the arrests made throughout Europe turn up to be linked to Al Qaeda I'd say they're in top shape.

    Has it occurred to you that perhaps Clinton knew a knee-jerk retaliation attack after the USS Cole and US Embassies bombings would have resolved nothing since America knew then (as it does now) that even 1,000 cruise missiles won't any damage to the operational effectiveness of Al Qaeda? If memory serves he did launch a few missiles against a medicine factory somewhere. It achieved nothing other than perhaps giving Americans some sense of revenge against an enemy it cannot see.

    If anything Clinton should be congratulated for not launching a pointless retaliation strike that would have almost certainly killed innocent people and further damaged international relations with half the world.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin,

    I'm trying to figure out if you are actually a supporter of terrorism or actually as foolish as the above post indicates.

    Ever consider that the inaction of the Clinton administration led directly to the deaths at the World Trade Center?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :lol::lol:

    A typical Republican response that avoids facing the fact that it is the aggressive, oppressive, biased and selfish policy the USA has inflicted on countless nations that triggered the attacks, not the inaction of anyone.

    If anything you should be grateful that Clinton wasn't as trigger-happy and internationally inept as Bush is. For the terrorists might have held an ever bigger grudge against the US and crashed the planes on that nuclear plant upstate (which appeared to be their original plan until they decided it'd be too excessive).

    The best way to prevent attacks is to stop your unilateralist and one-sided policy in the Middle East and persecution of anyone who does not dance to your tune.

    No Bush, no Clinton, nobody would have been able to stop those attacks. Who was in power when the planes struck anyway?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    :lol::lol:

    A typical Republican response that avoids facing the fact that it is the aggressive, oppressive, biased and selfish policy the USA has inflicted on countless nations that triggered the attacks, not the inaction of anyone.

    If anything you should be grateful that Clinton wasn't as trigger-happy and internationally inept as Bush is. For the terrorists might have held an ever bigger grudge against the US and crashed the planes on that nuclear plant upstate (which appeared to be their original plan until they decided it'd be too excessive).

    The best way to prevent attacks is to stop your unilateralist and one-sided policy in the Middle East and persecution of anyone who does not dance to your tune.

    No Bush, no Clinton, nobody would have been able to stop those attacks. Who was in power when the planes struck anyway?

    Have you ever actually met a terrorist? You actually believe that garbage you posted, don't you? Funny how it has never worked. Terrorists have been with us for the entirety of recorded history, and all kneeling to their so called causes has ever done is created greater acts of terrorism.

    Without Clinton's inaction, it is possible the terrorists would not have attempted the hijackings on 9/11. Is it sure? No, but it his inaction sure didn't dissuade them.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Neither did all the money systematically doled out by Republican administrations to the likes of the Pakistani ISI which merely used the money to finance the setting up of training camps for terrorists.

    You are a hypocrit and so obviously blind to the complicity of those you unquestioningly support Greeny. You give my colleagues (both conservative and liberal) no end of amusement with your constant unsubstantiated claims and accusations.

    If anything Clinton restored some diplomacy to world affairs before the hawks swooped back in to hold the world at gun point. If not, we well might have been attacked sooner.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You could blame Clinton that way, and I could blame Bush for not doing enough in the 10 or so months he was in power before the attacks.

    And since terrorists have always been with us I could also blame Bush Snr. for not doing enough either. Al Qaeda was created during his presidency.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin, especially since one of the first things Bush did when assuming office was to order the US Intelligence Service to stop pursuing Bin Laden. Rather suspect given (as Greeny has pointed out himself) that Bin Laden should already have been apprehended on the basis of the Embassy and USS Cole bombings alone.

    Guess he needed his man free and unmolested for the big day as insurance against what we now see was a progressive decline in public opinion and the pre-planned Afghan invasion. How convenient for Bushie that nobody was asking any questions too soon.

    Some very interesting reading concerning many unanswered questions and the Bush admin complicity...

    http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO206A.html
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Greenhat

    Ruled over the largest bubble economy in US history. Maybe he learned economics from the Thais or Japanese. The US economy (and therefore the world economy) is suffering the results.


    To be fair, Clinton had little to do with the bubble economy and restraining its current effects. Alan Greenspan would be a better target.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    Aladdin, especially since one of the first things Bush did when assuming office was to order the US Intelligence Service to stop pursuing Bin Laden. Rather suspect given (as Greeny has pointed out himself) that Bin Laden should already have been apprehended on the basis of the Embassy and USS Cole bombings alone.

    You need to do a bit more research, Clandestine. Clinton ordered Bin Laden not be apprehended, not Bush.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Greenhat


    You need to do a bit more research, Clandestine. Clinton ordered Bin Laden not be apprehended, not Bush.

    roflmao.gif
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Clinton wasnt President any longer in January of 2001 when Bush ordered a freeze on any pursuit of Bin or any members of the Saudi Royal Family, Greeny. :rolleyes: Not surprising given the Bush family links to the Bin Ladens through the Carlyle Group and other business dealings.

    He also ordered Chicago FBI investigators to cease their investigations into local Saudi miilionaire Yassim Al-Qadi's possible ties with the 1998 Embassy bombings, which had been ongoing.

    Best you you follow your own advice and get a clue.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Funny thing, I have a copy of Clinton's order...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Unlikely in any form that you could post to confirm that I suppose?

    Notwithstanding that, fact or not, a subsequent stand down was ordered by Bush ...
    U.S. intelligence agencies… are complaining that their hands were tied… They said the restrictions became worse after the Bush administration took over this year. The intelligence agencies had been told to ‘back off’ from investigations involving other members of the Bin Laden family, the Saudi royals, and possible Saudi links to the acquisition of nuclear weapons by Pakistan. ‘There were particular investigations that were effectively killed.’”[74]

    [74] Palast, Gregory and Pallister, David, ‘FBI claims Bin Laden inquiry was frustrated,’ The Guardian, 7 November 2001. For further discussion see Chapter VI.

    http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=103&row=0

    (which makes far more sense given his ties to the Bin Ladens) in January 2001.

    In fact, a number of of officials including at least one DIA investigator resigned shortly after Bush took office for his obstruction of investigations into terrorist activities in Afghanistan well before 9/11. Another rather suspect point in this whole sordid mess.
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