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Is this so wrong?

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Been ripped to shreds on another forum by feminazis over my views on marriage/life partnerships or whatever depending on how PC you want to be. All I said was...

In a marriage or permanent relationship I think it's one of the wife's roles to look her best for her man wherever possible.

However....

I believe in return it's up to the husband to make his wife feel sexy, wanted, needed and loved wherever possible too.

Is that such a bad thing? The feminazis seemed to miss where I say 'wherever possible', I'm hoping you guys don't...

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I wouldn't use the word role. I have a bit of a feminazi streak myself and if I had to guess I reckon thats what put their backs up. I think its something a women in a happy relationship should want to do rather than something she feels obliged to do.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'd say to a degree, only because surely you'd marry someone you loved for more than their apperance. It's nice to look nice, but saying that in the words you did could come across as ownership.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What I meant was in a marriage there are different 'roles' for each person and that I consider it equally important for her to look good for him where possible as it is for him to make her feel cherished and appreciated. A two-way thing so to speak.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Feminazis. Used with out a trace of irony. Awesome :D
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    Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    Are you saying that a)it's an obligation (or "obligation") and b)it's not the same for the other way around?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Surely a woman wants her man to look his best too?

    Likewise don't most men want to feel needed and cherised?

    I think its a two way street withe both actually wanting the same things
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As a serious response, the reason I would object to your argument is because I object to anyone attempting to import their views about what an "ideal relationship" is on to the rest of the world at large. My objection is not a feminist one, it's a liberal one.

    If that's what your ideal relationship would be like, that's great, good for you. Why the need to generalize? Why make the further, much bolder claim that "in a marriage, one of the woman's roles should be..."? Why can't it be up to each couple to decide for themselves what their respective roles should be? And if you agree with that, then you should stop making generalizing assertions about what the proper role of individuals in their own marriages should be. That kind of interference in other people's sphere of personal autonomy winds me up. Why not simply say "I would expect my wife to try to look her best for me", and leave it up to me and my husband to decide whether that rule applies to us too?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's up to the individual couple to define their roles and expectations within a marriage, so if that's what both of you are fine with and you can acknowledge that this can potentially change then more power to you, but as Jamelia said, those wants are not universal and should not be treated as such.

    Incidentally, if a guy expected me to look my best wherever possible, it's not unreasonable to ask for the same back, otherwise you just end up in ridiculous situations like this
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    jamelia wrote: »
    As a serious response, the reason I would object to your argument is because I object to anyone attempting to import their views about what an "ideal relationship" is on to the rest of the world at large. My objection is not a feminist one, it's a liberal one.

    If that's what your ideal relationship would be like, that's great, good for you. Why the need to generalize? Why make the further, much bolder claim that "in a marriage, one of the woman's roles should be..."? Why can't it be up to each couple to decide for themselves what their respective roles should be? And if you agree with that, then you should stop making generalizing assertions about what the proper role of individuals in their own marriages should be. That kind of interference in other people's sphere of personal autonomy winds me up. Why not simply say "I would expect my wife to try to look her best for me", and leave it up to me and my husband to decide whether that rule applies to us too?
    To be fair it was a discussion about roles in relationships and whether or not we expect too much from our other halves. No way would I have the arrogance to tell other couples how to live their lives but I make no apologies for having an opinion of how I think marriage should be. As a very general rule men like their women to looks and equally I can't think of many women who would not want their man to make them feel loved.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To be fair it was a discussion about roles in relationships and whether or not we expect too much from our other halves. No way would I have the arrogance to tell other couples how to live their lives but I make no apologies for having an opinion of how I think marriage should be. As a very general rule men like their women to looks and equally I can't think of many women who would not want their man to make them feel loved.

    I still don't get your point. Are you trying to make a claim about what all marriages should be like? Or just about what you want your own to be like?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Depends what you mean by 'looking good', do you mean perfectly placed makeup, polished nails and shiney blow dried hair every day or just that she looks after herself in general but not nessessarily wearing a perfect face full of make up every day? I personally don't mind doing the usual hair removal routine, buffing my nails and getting my hair cut because I do that anyway. But I wouldn't want a guy to expect me to look like some perfect doll every single day. My ex always thought I looked my best first thing in the morning with no makeup and messy hair and it made me feel so good that I didn't need to do anything major apart from the normal grooming routines to make him appreciate how I looked. So then when I did put makeup on (minimal anyway) it was really for me and not him. I did expect him to take care of himself in return though - which he wasn't so good at. He did like me to tidy his eyebrows for him though :P
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    jamelia wrote: »
    I still don't get your point. Are you trying to make a claim about what all marriages should be like? Or just about what you want your own to be like?

    Both I guess. I'm aware I'm using generalisations however I don't see them as being offensive.
    Ballerina wrote:
    Depends what you mean by 'looking good', do you mean perfectly placed makeup, polished nails and shiney blow dried hair every day or just that she looks after herself in general but not nessessarily wearing a perfect face full of make up every day?

    Just generally 'looking good' - my point was I considered both 'roles' to be equally as important.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Both I guess. I'm aware I'm using generalisations however I don't see them as being offensive.

    I don't find it offensive either, just unnecessary and intolerant. It's simply not my place to tell other people what their relationships ought to be like, and I don't really get why you think it's your place either. Why the desire to tell other people how to live their lives?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    jamelia wrote: »
    I don't find it offensive either, just unnecessary and intolerant. It's simply not my place to tell other people what their relationships ought to be like, and I don't really get why you think it's your place either. Why the desire to tell other people how to live their lives?
    :yes:

    If someone expected me to look 'my best' all the time, they'd be waiting around for me a whole lot, since for me to look 'my best' according to ME, I have to spend at least half an hour doing my face. I don't fancy doing that every day, so if you don't mind, I'll stick to mascara and eyebrows and hair (that, when long, can take anywhere up to ANOTHER half hour to do properly).

    I cba to look my best all the time when I look half-decent when I don't bother anyway.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i can see both sides. I try and look nice for my boyfriend, and put makeup on before he comes home etc. I do quite a few things to keep myself looking at my best. He doesnt always bother, and it annoys me if he doesnt shaVE for a week or something. I wish he'd make more of an effort sometimes. Doesnt affect how much i love him, but it does sometimes affect how attracted i may feel at any one time.
    Saying that, when i was pregnant and postnatal and big and fat, it didnt seem to affect how attracted he was to me thankfully, so maybe im the shallow one?



    I dont think its a wifes duty, but i do think if you completely let yourself go, it doesnt show much respect for your partner
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    so maybe im the shallow one?

    Or maybe you care more about how you look than he does? which I don't always makes you shallow.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    jamelia wrote: »
    I don't find it offensive either, just unnecessary and intolerant. It's simply not my place to tell other people what their relationships ought to be like, and I don't really get why you think it's your place either. Why the desire to tell other people how to live their lives?

    Wind your neck in, I haven't told anyone how to live their lives. It was a discussion about roles in relationships and I gave my view of what I though it should be. I don't know how you take part in debates but simply giving your view does not mean you're telling others to follow it.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Glenn, there's no need to be so defensive, nor to tell me to wind my neck in, when all I'm doing is answering the question that you asked. My point was a direct response to yours, so if you didn't want to hear any objections to it, why did you ask the question?

    You asked "is this so wrong?" My response is, if that's how you want to live your life, and can find someone else who is happy to live her life like that, no, it's not wrong. What is wrong is when you start making statements like "a woman's role should be...", or "any marriage should be like...", because this is prescriptive and intolerant. You're not just giving your view about what your marriage should be like. By your own admission, you're giving your view about what other people's marriages should be like too. If you are making statements like these then you are saying you think you have some authority to tell people how they ought to live, and I find that illiberal.

    I don't get what's so difficult to understand. There are two possible points you might be making:

    1. In my marriage, I expect my wife to act a certain way. This I have no objections to, and nothing to say about it at all, it's none of my business if you're both consenting adults.
    2. In marriages generally, women ought to act a certain way. If you're making that point, you're trying to tell other people what their marriages ought to be like, and I think it's none of your business.

    If you don't want to know why people might object to your view, why ask the question? :confused:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Here's to how to make my point clearer: you say "simply giving your view does not mean you're telling others to follow it".

    Except that in this case, your view is a view about how other people ought to live, so by saying "women ought to do x", you are saying they ought to follow it. If not, what else could you possibly be saying? Either you're telling other people how to live, or your statement is meaningless.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think it's more a case of you wanting to try and shoe-horn me in to saying something and because I haven't actually said it you're twisting my words to do so. If someone asks you or opinion on how you view something it does not mean you think everyone should agree with you, right? For example if you said "I think Glenn Quagmire is a mysoginistic and typically sexist male" that doesn't mean you expect everyone else to agree with you, right? I was asked how I view roles in marriage, I did not say I think everyone should live their lives that way. If you heard me say something else then that sounds more like an agenda on your part.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think it's more a case of you wanting to try and shoe-horn me in to saying something and because I haven't actually said it you're twisting my words to do so. If someone asks you or opinion on how you view something it does not mean you think everyone should agree with you, right? For example if you said "I think Glenn Quagmire is a mysoginistic and typically sexist male" that doesn't mean you expect everyone else to agree with you, right? I was asked how I view roles in marriage, I did not say I think everyone should live their lives that way. If you heard me say something else then that sounds more like an agenda on your part.

    Ok, I will retire from trying to reason with you after this point, because only a fool continues to try to reason with the unreasonable.

    I am not trying to shoe-horn you into anything. I am responding to arguments you yourself have made. The problem is, you don't seem to understand what conclusions those arguments rationally commit you to, so are trying to avoid them, when you can't.

    If I have a view about which flavour of pot noodle is the tastiest, then no, I am not trying to force everyone to agree with me or making judgements about how other people should live. If I have a view about how me and my husband should behave, then no, I am not trying to tell other people how to live. If I have a view about what flavour pot noodle other people ought to like the best, or how other people ought to conduct their marriages, then yes, I am claiming some authority over how other people ought to live. That is definitionally true; it can't be denied.

    Try reading me carefully and thinking about my arguments slowly and rationally before banging out a reply about misogyny and feminazis and blah blah blah, because I've got absolutely NO feminist beef in this thread with you at all. This is my point :

    I asked you, "are you making a statement about what your marriage should be like? Or are you making a judgement about what all marriages should be like?"

    You replied: "both".


    Glenn, this is a judgement about how other people ought to live - a judgement about what other marriages, not just your own, ought to be like. Are you really claiming not to see that??

    I find that unnecessary. I don't judge your relationship, you shouldn't judge mine, live and let live, etc. That is my one and only objection to the things you said in your first post. Nothing feminazi there, see?

    But if you honestly cannot understand why making generalizing claims about what other people's marriages ought to be like is making a prescriptive judgement about how other people ought to live, then I really am wasting my time trying to discuss anything with you.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think it's more a case of you wanting to try and shoe-horn me in to saying something and because I haven't actually said it you're twisting my words to do so. If someone asks you or opinion on how you view something it does not mean you think everyone should agree with you, right? For example if you said "I think Glenn Quagmire is a mysoginistic and typically sexist male" that doesn't mean you expect everyone else to agree with you, right? I was asked how I view roles in marriage, I did not say I think everyone should live their lives that way. If you heard me say something else then that sounds more like an agenda on your part.

    Come on now Glen, you're equivocating like a muthafucker. No one's suggested that tacit in expressing one's opinion is the expectation of agreement - stick to your guns or concede the point, don't try shift the ground.

    You're just steps away from "I'm entitled to my opinion": a shit argument's death rattle.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You're just steps away from "I'm entitled to my opinion": a shit argument's death rattle.

    Exactly. In this debate there are only two possible options: triviality, or biting the bullet.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Do we get to see the original thread on the other forum?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To be honest I think it demonstrates an unrealistic expectation in the first place, depending on what you mean by "looking your best".

    As a generalism, and certainly in my own relationship, I don' think it's possible to define "roles" in any sense. A relationship is a partnership and you both have responsibility to each other to achieve any aims - whether that is image or chores.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To be honest I think it demonstrates an unrealistic expectation in the first place, depending on what you mean by "looking your best".

    As a generalism, and certainly in my own relationship, I don' think it's possible to define "roles" in any sense. A relationship is a partnership and you both have responsibility to each other to achieve any aims - whether that is image or chores.

    :yes:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think when you start doing something out a sense of duty or obligation to your partner rather than because you want to then the relationships in trouble.

    Also why the gender specific responsibilities? Surely if its a womans responsibility to look good its also a mans. Also men need love and affection too.
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