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Israeli soldiers admit to war crimes

BillieTheBotBillieTheBot 🤖Posts: 8,658 Automated Account
As if countless independent witness accounts and the testimony of international bodies and organisations was not enough, now we have it from the horse's mouth.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7952603.stm

This is a priceless opportunity for the international community to show if they are really impartial and fair towards Palestinians and Arabs, as they claim. Will they seek to bring those responsible to justice? Will they threaten sanctions or boycotts against Israel? Will they stop supplying them with weapons? Will they at the very least label its government as State terrorists, refuse to deal with them and give them the strongest condemnation possible, as they do to the Palestinian government?

Do not hold your breath... :rolleyes:
Beep boop. I'm a bot.

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't know man, did the international community label the US or UK state terrorists for similar reports that came out of Iraq? I don't really see it as the 'least' action to declare a democratic state as terrorists.

    I'm more concerned to see how Israel reacts to the claims of its own soldiers and decides to respond.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Wow - shocking news - war is brutal. What's the next expose - people died?

    Honestly, read beyond the boys own stories and you'll fine that's pretty much the face of all war (albeit there doesn't seem to be many of the normal tales of PWs also being shot as well)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Wow - shocking news - war is brutal. What's the next expose - people died?
    Surely you know better than this Flashman.

    I know you are aware of international law and treaties concerning civilians. Shooting unarmed women and children in cold blood is murder and a war crime. End of.

    Otherwise, every last action ever perpetrated by the Palestinians, from firing rockets to detonating bombs in buses, is also perfectly legitimate and we must stop suggesting Hamas are terrorists and their actions unacceptable.

    Does that sound fair to you?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So you are suggesting that Hamas should arrest all people involved in actions against Israeli civilian targets? and that Hamas should be declared a terrorist state?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not wanting to get embroiled in any argument, but as Flashman said what do you expect? Like I said in the other thread when it was going on, Israeli soldiers are effectively told they're on a mission from god and that the Palestinians are a scourge trying to kill them. The link to a rabbi's preaching of such is in the other thread.

    Also, there is a group for IDF soldiers to come forward and tell their stories anonymously, because this is pretty much the tip of the iceberg. It's like Japan and China, of course Japan were going to rape and murder thousands when they invaded because they hate the Chinese and don't even see them as human. Exact same thing, IDF soldiers were indoctrined not to think of Palestinians as humans, just as Hamas terrorists are indoctrined not to think of Israelis as humans.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote: »
    So you are suggesting that Hamas should arrest all people involved in actions against Israeli civilian targets? and that Hamas should be declared a terrorist state?
    No. I'm suggesting that the difference in treatement Hamas and the israeli government receive from the international community is completely unfair and unnaceptable, and that for as long as it continues peace will not be achieved.

    Either we stop isolating Hamas and calling them terrorists, or we start doing the same to the Israeli government. Because we're not going to achieve anything for as long such absurd disparity of treatment continues.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Not wanting to get embroiled in any argument, but as Flashman said what do you expect? Like I said in the other thread when it was going on, Israeli soldiers are effectively told they're on a mission from god and that the Palestinians are a scourge trying to kill them. The link to a rabbi's preaching of such is in the other thread.

    Also, there is a group for IDF soldiers to come forward and tell their stories anonymously, because this is pretty much the tip of the iceberg. It's like Japan and China, of course Japan were going to rape and murder thousands when they invaded because they hate the Chinese and don't even see them as human. Exact same thing, IDF soldiers were indoctrined not to think of Palestinians as humans, just as Hamas terrorists are indoctrined not to think of Israelis as humans.
    I don't disagree with that. Please note that the focus I'm concentrating on is the position from the International community to the actions of both sides.

    Why is Hamas still being isolated and demonised at diplomatic levels but the Israeli government is not?

    Israel has just managed to elect an ultra fundamentalist right wing coalition government, some members of which make Hamas look like hippies. Where is the despair and condemnation from the US and the West? It certainly was plentiful when Hamas was elected to power.

    Etc etc etc.

    Bottom line: at the very least, the Israeli government is as bad an offender and abuser as the Hamas govenrment. It is nothing short of a disgrace that we continue to treat the former as a hard-pressed democracy 'defending itself' and the latter as a bunch of terrorists with whom we must have no friendly diplomatic relations.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yea see my sig for my perspective on it, they're just quotes as well.

    The world is biased, basically. In the United States a lot of Jewish people have a lot of money and throw money at the presidential candidates they like the best and so if you want to be the president you have to be very pro-Israel, even anti-Palestine maybe. And from the US it spills down into other Western countries. I think the United States has the largest Jewish population in the world. (Maybe Israel does, not sure)

    I mean it was in the first thread I was saying about 'humanitarian atrocities' and then other pro Israel supporters were saying in response to my suggesting an immediate boycott that we'd be buggered because they give us so much or something. It was almost like neocolonialism whereby Israel due to the extensive cross investment is closer to a satellite state than an independent ally.

    As such too many people see it as 'us' and 'them'. I think I'm quite fortunate to be of a younger generation that doesn't have the guilt hangover from the holocaust and so I'm happy to say the IDF is murderous scum (as an institution) and that the Israeli government is loaded with people on the same page or worse than George Bush, and if anyone wants to call me an anti semite for acknowledging those truths then that's their problem because tbh I think Israeli supporters ONLY have the race card to play, because there is no reasonable defence for their actions.

    I also condemn Hamas' actions but lest we not forget that Hamas was funded and supported by Israel in order to undermine the Palestinian government and divide the population. It is no secret that the objective of the Israeli government and peoples at least in some significant amount is to annex as much land as possible in the region so that when there is finally a resolution to the conflict they come off with as much land as possible.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    As such too many people see it as 'us' and 'them'. I think I'm quite fortunate to be of a younger generation that doesn't have the guilt hangover from the holocaust and so I'm happy to say the IDF is murderous scum (as an institution) and that the Israeli government is loaded with people on the same page or worse than George Bush, and if anyone wants to call me an anti semite for acknowledging those truths then that's their problem because tbh I think Israeli supporters ONLY have the race card to play, because there is no reasonable defence for their actions.


    I'm sure it's in any way an absolute truth that Israeli government has behaved worse than George Bush. Looking at the conflicts in Iraq and Afganistan you can make that arguement.

    I also really do think that by defining Israel by race and claiming they only get to behave the way they do because of the holocaust (despite the US and UK being criticised for very similar actions) does imply a bias in your views that could easily be seen as anti-semitic in it's unintentional origin.

    The US and Uk can claim to invade and occupy countries in the name of freedom but the Israeli's can only do it because they are Jews who were involved in the holocaust? That certainly doesn't seem like you're judging them on an equal level to other democratic states.

    For reference we use the working definition prepared by the European Unioan Agency for Fundamental Rights to define anti-semitism, though we wouldn't necessarily assume people are aware of when their postings may be percieved that way. So here's an abbreviated version.

    http://vbulletin.thesite.org/images/antisemitism.doc

    However this isn't the same thing as saying that these actions shouldn't be criticised, but saying - they get to do it because of the holocaust, that's way off the mark.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Israeli Army t-shirts mocking the killing of innocent women and children

    15245789.jpg


    Well it's good to see they're treating the deliberate murder of innocent civilians with the gravity it deserves...

    And some people still object to the Israeli army/government being compared to Hamas... :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote: »
    I'm sure it's in any way an absolute truth that Israeli government has behaved worse than George Bush. Looking at the conflicts in Iraq and Afganistan you can make that arguement.

    I also really do think that by defining Israel by race and claiming they only get to behave the way they do because of the holocaust (despite the US and UK being criticised for very similar actions) does imply a bias in your views that could easily be seen as anti-semitic in it's unintentional origin.

    The US and Uk can claim to invade and occupy countries in the name of freedom but the Israeli's can only do it because they are Jews who were involved in the holocaust? That certainly doesn't seem like you're judging them on an equal level to other democratic states.

    For reference we use the working definition prepared by the European Unioan Agency for Fundamental Rights to define anti-semitism, though we wouldn't necessarily assume people are aware of when their postings may be percieved that way. So here's an abbreviated version.

    http://vbulletin.thesite.org/images/antisemitism.doc

    However this isn't the same thing as saying that these actions shouldn't be criticised, but saying - they get to do it because of the holocaust, that's way off the mark.

    I think you've misinterpreted me. The US and UK generally are a law unto themselves. That's fairly evident from the fact that they engaged in an illegal war in Iraq that has never been sanctioned by the UN. However, what I was saying, is that Israel receives far less criticism from international governments because of the holocaust.

    That definition of anti semitism is fairly broad, in that some things wouldn't seem racist "drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis" but nevermind eh. It does say "criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic" - but should I really have to qualify everything I say to protect myself from being called anti semitic? I see anti semitism as a fancy word for racism against the jews. Saying the state of Israel gets preferential treatment because Jewish lobbyists in the US have significant political power isn't racist. Furthermore, Israel defines itself as a Jewish state, which is a reason why policy makers are reluctant to allow the right of return to Palestinians because they want a Jewish state for Jewish people.

    Aladdin - best be careful there, comparing the Israeli government to undesirables like those dirty hamas lot could be constituted as anti semitic.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Every country is a law unto themselves, not just the US and UK (or Israel). The world has done fuck all about Sri Lanka, Russia, Congo etc. You have to be pretty bad before anyone does anything, much, much worse than Israel.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I guess the difference is Israel is topical at the minute and also sri lanka and congo don't receive the massive military aid that Israel does. I don't try and pretend I'm any less flawed than anyone else in only condemning current issues, but just because I don't condemn every issue in the world doesn't mean if something comes up in P&D I won't have a go ;). Also, does Sri Lanka, Congo or Russia get the support from other governments in the "We recognise Israel's right to defend itself." rhetoric?

    Of course there is no action, but at least there is widespread condemnation for most nations, including the US, the UK, and China. The difference with Israel from those is that so many other governments get really partisan about a contentious issue and refer to Hamas as a terrorist organisation and refuses to have political ties with them whilst pledging their support and alleigance with Israel.
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