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AID exacerbates African poverty says African economist.

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Source

I think she makes a good point in comparing what the west and China are doing in Africa. China invests in infrastructure partly enriching Africans but (non-emergency) aid simply keeps them in poverty and even has unintended negative consquences.

and in before wargh daily mail.

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There's a sound economic argument behind, but as usual the Mail takes what appears to be a reasoned analysis and peppers its reporting of it with ascerbic references to 'idiots' and such contemptuous blustering that turns people off.

    It's what looks like a potential jewel of information, conveyed by a poisonous rag.

    It's one of the reasons why Fair Trade goods are often a better initiative - the whole 'give a man a fish' thing clearly makes sense; witness the Nobel prize winning work of micro-credit initiatives in Bangladesh, for example.

    Oh, and Bono is a tax-dodging, self-serving cunt.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c86d4410-1a5f-11dc-8bf0-000b5df10621.html?nclick_check=1
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think the case is overstated - true some aid is damaging, the majority is probably ineffective (lots of prestige capital projects which break down after a few years), but some does some good (and its worth noting that if you're starving to death in a refugee camp in Ethipia it's unlikely that you're thinking about how to start your own business - sometimes short term aid is absolutely essential).

    Luckily there's been a move in fair trade over the last couple of years, originally you used to have the best paid people in a country were the unskilled coffee pickers, so the brighest and best would move to that rather than jobs such as engineers, architects, mechanics - which would have grown the economy. To be fair there does seem to have been a shift towards putting money into infrastructure rather than direct to the pickers.

    However, the biggest problem is endemic corruption. Starting a business in many (albeit not all) African states (and not just Africa, Bangladesh and Nepal also spring to mind) often meant paying so many kickbacks to low level functionaries that any profit was wiped out, plus when you started it you had to pay plenty of cash to traffic peelers if you wanted to move your goods anywhere. So people didn't start business or employ anyone else or produce enough money to save and invest.

    At a higher level the corruption stopped multi-national's investing in countries, the hassle just wasn't worth it; especially when places like South Korea were welcoming you with open arms. Without MNC's bringing in technology and expertise (and typically also paying much more than local businesses) companies were stagnating and relying on older, less efficient techniques.

    Of course despite all the platitudes from Western Governments the best thing they could do would be to remove tarrifs, which wouldn't only be great for the Africans who can actually sell stuff without being slammed with hideous taxes, but great for the majority of us who could also stop being ripped of by European farmers gouging us for all we're worth. France would throw a strop though
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    On Bono I always loved this story (which probably isn't true).

    Bono is on stage and calls for the audience to hush. Slowly he begins to clap his hands, whilst the rest of U2 stand silently behind him. Eventually he intones, "Each time I clap a child in Africa is dying."

    To which someone from the front row calls, "Well, why don't you fucking well stop then?"
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Coming up next week, Andrew Mwenda exclusively reveals that bears shit in the woods. Seriously, this is news? Of course aid to Africa exacerbates poverty. If Africans know that the Westerners will keep giving them aid, they'll have no incentive whatsoever to work harder to get out of poverty. Far better for the West to remove all trade barriers and let Africa make its money that way. Do it like that, and the money will go to the people who have been given jobs and hope, not to murdering dictators like Robert Mugabe.

    As for Bono's rant, I believe it's vital to view his words in context. The context being, of course, that Bono is a grade A cunt.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Coming up next week, Andrew Mwenda exclusively reveals that bears shit in the woods. Seriously, this is news? Of course aid to Africa exacerbates poverty. If Africans know that the Westerners will keep giving them aid, they'll have no incentive whatsoever to work harder to get out of poverty. Far better for the West to remove all trade barriers and let Africa make its money that way. Do it like that, and the money will go to the people who have been given jobs and hope, not to murdering dictators like Robert Mugabe.

    SG this is the type of unfounded blanket rational choice argument that typifies exactly what Mwenda is NOT arguing - as well as being both an horrendously generalised and dismissively racist statement (whether that was the intent or not).
    I think the case is overstated - true some aid is damaging, the majority is probably ineffective (lots of prestige capital projects which break down after a few years), but some does some good (and its worth noting that if you're starving to death in a refugee camp in Ethipia it's unlikely that you're thinking about how to start your own business - sometimes short term aid is absolutely essential).

    No but again this is a point made by the author himself - he appears to be quite careful in distinguishing what specific type of aid he is looking at. I think you are right in the sense of how it is reported (e.g: Aid = bad) because the argument is far more complex than this.
    Luckily there's been a move in fair trade over the last couple of years, originally you used to have the best paid people in a country were the unskilled coffee pickers, so the brighest and best would move to that rather than jobs such as engineers, architects, mechanics - which would have grown the economy. To be fair there does seem to have been a shift towards putting money into infrastructure rather than direct to the pickers.

    Agreed - it's a process that will take time and I don't think will ever be 'perfected' - but it's certainly a better alternative than the ruinous 'structural adjustment' programmes.
    However, the biggest problem is endemic corruption. Starting a business in many (albeit not all) African states (and not just Africa, Bangladesh and Nepal also spring to mind) often meant paying so many kickbacks to low level functionaries that any profit was wiped out, plus when you started it you had to pay plenty of cash to traffic peelers if you wanted to move your goods anywhere. So people didn't start business or employ anyone else or produce enough money to save and invest.

    At a higher level the corruption stopped multi-national's investing in countries, the hassle just wasn't worth it; especially when places like South Korea were welcoming you with open arms. Without MNC's bringing in technology and expertise (and typically also paying much more than local businesses) companies were stagnating and relying on older, less efficient techniques.

    True up to a point BUT I'd add the cavaet that it isn't so much corruption that is the problem, it is whether what is called corruption is conducive to good business. Self-evidently MNCs and their presence does not equal an increase in quality of life across the board.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    SG this is the type of unfounded blanket rational choice argument that typifies exactly what Mwenda is NOT arguing - as well as being both an horrendously generalised and dismissively racist statement (whether that was the intent or not).
    Accused of racism by Martin Bashir for telling the truth? My life is now complete.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Coming up next week, Andrew Mwenda exclusively reveals that bears shit in the woods. Seriously, this is news? Of course aid to Africa exacerbates poverty. If Africans know that the Westerners will keep giving them aid, they'll have no incentive whatsoever to work harder to get out of poverty. Far better for the West to remove all trade barriers and let Africa make its money that way. Do it like that, and the money will go to the people who have been given jobs and hope, not to murdering dictators like Robert Mugabe.

    As for Bono's rant, I believe it's vital to view his words in context. The context being, of course, that Bono is a grade A cunt.
    Which Africans?

    :confused:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Btw, the link doesn't work for me.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Of course there are far better solutions than giving aid. Seeing as some 350 individuals are said to possess half the world's private wealth, if we were to redistribute that wealth amongst the 1bn Africans their poverty would be instantly wiped out.

    Problem solved.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The story link is dead. If I think what it is, I've read something about it months back.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Of course there are far better solutions than giving aid. Seeing as some 350 individuals are said to possess half the world's private wealth, if we were to redistribute that wealth amongst the 1bn Africans their poverty would be instantly wiped out.

    Problem solved.

    That sounds like a quote straight out of the mouth of Robert Mugabe.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That sounds like a quote straight out of the mouth of Robert Mugabe.

    I don't think a statement can reasonably be refuted on the grounds that someone undesirable could in theory have said it :confused::confused:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    One of the biggest problems with Africa is they have diseases which dont kill white people - malaria being the main one.

    If we cared enough to spend the minimal amount of money it would cost to give Africans clean water and give all of those with AIDS anti-retrovirals they could work themselves out of poverty reasonably quickly.
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