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A suggestion on teenage antisocial behaviour: let them drink in pubs

Haven't found any reference online but it is being discussed on Radio 2 right now. Some people are proposing that we should change the law so under 16 year olds are allowed to be in pubs and drink alcohol in pubs unaccompanied by adults. Simply because while they are in the pub they will be contained and under the gaze of adults.

Apparently this approach has worked elsewhere in Europe. I must say it makes a lot of sense to me.

Any opponents?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think Kermit has mentioned this a few times as a good idea. I think it would be a good idea, yes.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    it would work better if people felt more that it was their place to correct teenagers' behaviour and that teenagers accepted that this was appropriate. A lot of parents think thatt only they should have influence over their child, in quite a protective way, and I imagine most teenagers think "You're not my parent, you can't tell me what to do." With this private way of childrearing, no, I don't think it would work.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Bad idea, pubs don't need anymore drunken teenagers, perhaps more youth clubs/activities that teens want to get involved in is the answer. I think the proposals to confiscate drinks of teens is a better solution and prosecuting/suing parents for their actions is more effective.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I expect that 16 year olds would go to the same places that 18 year olds go currently, and I don't know about other areas, but round by me, they're not exactly shining examples of responsible drinking. I think a good idea might be to allow them to become members of private clubs instead, where there is more of a community feel and an emphasis on a quiet drink rather than downing as much as you can.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I honestly think it could work, but it would need more control. The licensee would need to actually do their job and not serve alcohol to drunk people.

    I think restricted access to alcohol in pubs would be a good thing- let them in the pub to play a bit of pool but don't let them near the spirits. It's better than the current situation where they all go and stand in a bus shelter swigging vodka.

    I think a lot of kids would have a quiet drink, tbh, particularly if nightclubs were not allowed to let under-18s in. Certainly I went to the pub with my friends to play pool (badly) and have a quiet drink after school when I was 15.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    I honestly think it could work, but it would need more control. The licensee would need to actually do their job and not serve alcohol to drunk people.

    I think restricted access to alcohol in pubs would be a good thing- let them in the pub to play a bit of pool but don't let them near the spirits. It's better than the current situation where they all go and stand in a bus shelter swigging vodka.

    I think a lot of kids would have a quiet drink, tbh, particularly if nightclubs were not allowed to let under-18s in. Certainly I went to the pub with my friends to play pool (badly) and have a quiet drink after school when I was 15.
    Same here. In Spain there is a whole more relaxed attitude to teenage drinking in bars and pubs, but maybe it is because of it that my mates and I could and did enjoy a civilised drink in a bar, rather than mindless booze sessions on a park bench where the only attraction or goal appears to be to get shitfaced as soon as possible.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hmm... I'm uneasy about such an idea. The last thing pubs need is more drunken teenagers - they're having a tough enough time in that trade as it is. I definitely don't think they should have access to every single drink there is, though - there's some incredibly strong alcohol out there. Neither would it help if we saw pub staff serving teenagers who were already drunk. I'm yet to be convinced.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I doubt it would make any difference, its not like pubs are shining examples of responsible drinking.

    Seperating out teenage (especially late teenage) and adult drinking is somewhat pointless - a far more pressing issue is why so many people are drinking to excess.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Same here. In Spain there is a whole more relaxed attitude to teenage drinking in bars and pubs, but maybe it is because of it that my mates and I could and did enjoy a civilised drink in a bar, rather than mindless booze sessions on a park bench where the only attraction or goal appears to be to get shitfaced as soon as possible.

    The drinking culture is completely different in Spain and I don't think the same solutions would work here.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    Seperating out teenage (especially late teenage) and adult drinking is somewhat pointless - a far more pressing issue is why so many people are drinking to excess.

    This was my initial reaction also. Although i'm not against the idea of younger people in pubs, it does feel a bit like treating the symptoms rather than the cause.

    The be quite honest i'm also a little suspicious of just how out of control our drinking culture is. I appreciate that alcohol does appear to play a large part in people's lives, but how much of it is devastating, i'm still be be convinced on.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Let them eat cake....

    Seriously though, it would stop a lot of teens drinking on street corners so it can only be a good thing. However, we need to change our cultural attitude towards drink first to completely solve the problem.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I would need a far larger brain than the one i've got to understand the logic involved here: While yobbos are drinking in pubs unaccompanied by adults who they know, they will be better behaved because they are under the gaze of adults who they don't know? This will end the current state of affairs, where they brazenly misbehave in open sight of both adults they do and don't know? And when the responsible pub owner has refused to give them any more alcohol, I suppose they'll say 'right you are boss', go home, make a nice hot cup of chocolate, and settle down with a lovely romance novel or something.

    I'll stick with the old idea that if parents actually act like parents, if the police enforce the law, and if schools educate children and instil in them a sense that they can actually make something of themselves through study and hard-work, they probably won't become yobs. Though I realise doing all of that would require effort, it isn't nearly as easy as saying 'let's give kids alcohol, alcohol makes everything better'.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The be quite honest i'm also a little suspicious of just how out of control our drinking culture is. I appreciate that alcohol does appear to play a large part in people's lives, but how much of it is devastating, i'm still be be convinced on.
    Some statistics to get your head around (don't know how much they'll mean to you though).

    Alcohol-related deaths:

    1091a.gif

    Though it doesn't look like older people should be lecturing kids any time soon, because the biggest rise in deaths is for people between the ages of 35 and 74:

    1091b.gif

    from here.

    Then from this PDF File:

    2.9 million people are dependent on the stuff (2001).
    6000 deaths are directly attributable to it per year (2004) - illegal drugs combined account for 1565 deaths.
    15,000-22,000 premature deaths are linked to alcohol misuse (2003).
    150,000 hospital admissions a year for heavy drinking (2003).
    £1.7bn a year in NHS costs (2003).
    1/3 of all A+E admittances are alcohol related, rising to 70% at peak times (2003).
    £7.3bn alcohol-related crime prevention, criminal damage, and basically everything relating to policing it, including prisons and victim support (2003).
    Alcohol is present in 45% of assault arrests, and 48% of criminal damage arrests (2003).
    560 road deaths due to drink driving accounting for 15% of road deaths (2002 - I hear it's gone up in the past few years too).
    1/3 of domestic violence incidents occur during drinking (2003).
    63% of sentenced male prisoners and 39% of sentenced female prisoners
    were classed as hazardous drinkers in the year before coming into prison (1999).
    £6.4bn in lost earnings and lost profits due to people not showing up to work because of alcohol use (2003).

    Interpret them however you want. What seems clear to me is that adults are in no position to be lecturing kids on responsible drinking with some of those figures.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I can't say I want fifteen year olds who can't hold their beer in the same pub as me. Frankly if they're going to drink, they can bloody well do it in the park and cause hassle there...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    don't think it'd be a good idea .. not with half of the kids around here anyway, you'd end up with gang fights and trashed pubs!

    knowing fully well what these wee bastards can be like i don't think it would work :no:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I can't say I want fifteen year olds who can't hold their beer in the same pub as me. Frankly if they're going to drink, they can bloody well do it in the park and cause hassle there...


    Here, here

    Its a great British tradition, I look back with fondness at drinking cheap cider on a bench and making a racket.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Same here. In Spain there is a whole more relaxed attitude to teenage drinking in bars and pubs, but maybe it is because of it that my mates and I could and did enjoy a civilised drink in a bar, rather than mindless booze sessions on a park bench where the only attraction or goal appears to be to get shitfaced as soon as possible.

    i got shitfaced at 16/17, my mate drank a 2L bottle of white 'cider' once (if you can say it has any relavance to real cider that is) - mainly because there wasn't much to do apart from that and cinema/video games, which tend to be an expensive hobby, the places that would let us in, we was cheap by taking our time on pints, arguing over which jukebox song to put on, and beating eachother at pool

    as long as you can't serve them drink with a alcohol greater than say 6% and enforce the law of not serving drunks it would work on a sizeable amount of teenagers definetly, even if not all
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I can't say I want fifteen year olds who can't hold their beer in the same pub as me. Frankly if they're going to drink, they can bloody well do it in the park and cause hassle there...

    Funnily enough you don't see that in Spanish bars, or in most other European countries.

    The problem has more to do with culture here than the ability to hold a drink. Here it seem that people think that you cannot have fun without being shitfaced - you see threads on these boards talking about it. It seems that rather than the ability to hold a drink, ones inability is something which you should be proud of. That is what needs to be challenged.

    Responsible drinking is part of that culture, moderation rather than obliteration. Kermit is right when he talks about landlords taking their responsibility to heart in not serving drunks for a start...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If this were Spain then yes, it is a good idea. But, frankly I don't trust the teens or the licensees to act responsibly enough.
    When you've got problems with curbing binge drinking, violence and disorder in the over 18's in city centre's, what makes anyone think the 16 year olds would act differently?


    For the idea to work we need a culture change, not just a change in the law, which i can't see happening.


    Perhaps if the law change brought with it stiff penalties for being drunk in public, or stiffer penalties for landlords who serve drunken people it might work.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Proper enforcement of licensing laws, and 16 yr olds in pubs playing pool with pints.

    Can't think of any pubs I frequent where people are rip roaring drunk.

    I personally feel there's a lot to be said for the precedent as alcohol as part of an evening, rather than using alcohol to get drunk as the aim of an evening.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kinda off topic but I just watched that god-awful "soco" advert. I was under the impression that it was illegal to advertise alcohol and relate it to social success. In that case, how the fuck did this advert get past the guidelines? Presumably they realised that people who adopted the advert's suggestion and called it soco would have no friends as a result and soon learn their lesson?
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