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Commons vote for a fully elected House of Lords

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6420965.stm

I'm all for it. Though I know many will disagree.

I simply can't see why certain people should have the right to a seat in the Lords simply because an accident of birth, membership of a religion or indeed having given a few fat brown envelopes to a political party.

At least with a fully elected House of Lords it's up to the electorate to fuck things up- and to remedy it at the next election.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    rubber_stamp01.jpg
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I see the house of Lords a little bit like the barman who says wooo slow down, you're drunk enough as it is.
    They're job is to try and curb the inevitable over zealousness of the house of commons and they do quite a good one. If you're having an elected second chamber, and an elected first chamber, then you're going to end up with exactly the same thing and one of them will be a pointless waste.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not really, since the roles of each house would differ, so the attributes by which someone gets elected into each would also differ. I don't see how anyone can actually argue that it's a good thing that people in government formally have power without being elected. To me it smacks of a "we know best" upper class there to stop those elected by the rest of us making any silly mistakes, and changing things too much. I don't object to the idea of a second chamber, but I don't see why who your daddy is qualifies you to know what's best for the country.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    they're going to have to change the name if it's possible there wont be any lords in the house of lords any more :chin:

    or do they get an honorary title when they get ellected ?

    or perhaps you have to be a lord to begin with to be a candidate?

    *knows little of such matters*
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I used to think it was unfair. But now I see why it's like that, and I think it's a good idea. I think it should be a better way of deciding who's a lord - for example someone who has proved themselves to be an upstanding member of society with an honest interest in the welfare of the country, rather than CEOs or whatever who just vote for whatever puts the most money in their pockets.

    I'd like to see Ewan McGreggor in the house of lords, he probably does more for unicef than half the MPs in the commons put together do for all charities :)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't think that an elected house is always as good as its made out to be. In times of landslide victories the second house won't ensure that Government legislation is sound, and in times of narrow victories the second house could seriously impede the will of the elected Government.

    The current House has only a tiny number of hereditary peers, and they were chosen to be there. I'm in favour of half being elected and half being nominated, with each of the three major parties having a third of the nominated seats each.

    There would have to be a lot of checks and balances to ensure that it doesn't act as a rubber stamp for the Government without any scrutiny of legislation.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    100% nominated, but it taken away from the Govt and given to an independent panel (which could have politicians on it) and with automatic places been given to certain posts (ex-PMs, Secretary General of TUC or CBI).

    If you're going to have an elected chamber it becomes party political, with whipping etc where one of the strengths of the Lords to scrutinise legislation is that there's so many cross-benchers and even the party appointees are hard to whip as they are in there for life and can't be removed by vengeful party associations for not following the party line.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But isn't a nominated peer worse than an elected one? At least with the latter it is the public who gets to choose it. A nominated peer is almost always invariably in the pocket of the party that nominated them.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    But isn't a nominated peer worse than an elected one? At least with the latter it is the public who gets to choose it. A nominated peer is almost always invariably in the pocket of the party that nominated them.

    But then the peer who says 'I'm going to make sure we get free beer for everyone' will get voted in, who's just as stupid as the populist MPs. Getting fed up of the libdems a lot these days actually, they just seem to say what they think people want them to hear.

    'Top up fees are bad'. 'Iraq war is bad'. Etc. etc.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    But then the peer who says 'I'm going to make sure we get free beer for everyone' will get voted in, who's just as stupid as the populist MPs.
    So we should give all the desicion making and control over to someone who knows what's best for us then? Like Aladdin said, surely it's more dangerous to have a second chamber that is nominated by the very people they are supposed to be keeping in check? I doubt they'd nominate anyone that's going to make life difficult for them somehow.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So we should give all the desicion making and control over to someone who knows what's best for us then? Like Aladdin said, surely it's more dangerous to have a second chamber that is nominated by the very people they are supposed to be keeping in check? I doubt they'd nominate anyone that's going to make life difficult for them somehow.

    To be honest, it's a tricky question that's difficult to get around. Which is why I would nominate Ewan McGregor. You want someone with no party affiliations ideally, but it's nearly impossible.

    But letting the public vote is no better.

    I would say, why doesn't the Queen just pick some people she thinks are upstanding individuals worthy of protecting the rights and welfare of the people, but you have the problems of despotism then. But the Queen surely doesn't have a vested interest in any of the political parties, she just wants (in theory) what's best for the country doesn't she?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Replicant wrote: »
    they're going to have to change the name if it's possible there wont be any lords in the house of lords any more :chin:

    or do they get an honorary title when they get ellected ?

    or perhaps you have to be a lord to begin with to be a candidate?

    *knows little of such matters*

    They were discussing this with Tony Benn on the radio today. He reckons (and I agree with him) that it should be called the senate.

    Frankly, I see nothing wrong with having an elected second chamber (most other democracies, like America have them), but I think it should be wholly elected on a PR system, keeping the Commons under first past the post.

    I was never comfortable with labour's so-called reform (more like vandalism) which removed most of the hereditary peers and replaced them with appointed cronies. We should either have fully-elected or fully hereditary, but not the mish-mash we have now.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    But isn't a nominated peer worse than an elected one? At least with the latter it is the public who gets to choose it. A nominated peer is almost always invariably in the pocket of the party that nominated them.

    In the current system he isn't though- the Party can withdraw the whip from him (as happened with Lord Archer) but he can't be booted out of the House.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    To be honest, it's a tricky question that's difficult to get around. Which is why I would nominate Ewan McGregor. You want someone with no party affiliations ideally, but it's nearly impossible.

    But letting the public vote is no better.
    Well then maybe the public shouldn't vote for the MP's in the first place then if they don't know who'd run the country best? The fact is that anyone put in position is likely to have political affiliations one way or another. At least they'd be open about it, and you shouldn't get people in there who are blatantly just out to benefit themselves/their company, just because they have friends in high places.
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    I would say, why doesn't the Queen just pick some people she thinks are upstanding individuals worthy of protecting the rights and welfare of the people, but you have the problems of despotism then. But the Queen surely doesn't have a vested interest in any of the political parties, she just wants (in theory) what's best for the country doesn't she?
    Well theoretically yes she does. But it still begs the question, why should the queen get to decide who would run the country best? Why is she any more qualified to make these decisions than anyone else? And why in a democracy
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    But isn't a nominated peer worse than an elected one? At least with the latter it is the public who gets to choose it. A nominated peer is almost always invariably in the pocket of the party that nominated them.

    That's why you want an independent panel.

    That said once you've nominated someone for the Lords they can't be sacked and you have no hold over them.

    Elected Lords will on the other hand continue to be in the pocket of the party - unless you want independent candidates (or independently wealthy to to give them their full title)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The biggest problem I see with elected Lords is that party loyalty influences how most voters cast their vote. If someone is voting Labour (or Con, or Lib Dems) in a general election and they get to vote for their preferred Upper House representative, chances are they will vote the Labour/Con/Lib Dem candidate as well.

    Then again there is always hope enough people will vote tactically to redress the balance of power a bit.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Or, hopefully, the second chamber would be elected with PR - which would massively change the distribution of party membership regardless of the first past the post results for MPs
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    minimi38 wrote: »
    rubber_stamp01.jpg

    have to agree it will probably land up party lists as it will suit all parties more than at the moment, give money to the party, and i suspect strangely youll be moved up the list


    id be all for a more democratic house of lords, but it cant be elected as till just be a 2nd house of commons i suggest something more random like say a lottery of the entire voting population
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    The biggest problem I see with elected Lords is that party loyalty influences how most voters cast their vote. If someone is voting Labour (or Con, or Lib Dems) in a general election and they get to vote for their preferred Upper House representative, chances are they will vote the Labour/Con/Lib Dem candidate as well.

    Then again there is always hope enough people will vote tactically to redress the balance of power a bit.



    if people just voted for who they thought had the best ideas instead of who has best chance of winning and actually did vote instead of saying i wont bother, things might change since the turnout is so low at the moment
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its somewhat futile even debating it, there really isnt any will for it to drastically change, Labour have done what they wanted with 'lords reform' and that was get a majority. That was their aim all along and they have done it nicely with the mask of trying to be democratic.

    If it is to be elected, it must be for a significantly longer term, 8 or 10 years, that way they would be less liable to be pushed around by the parties.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    Its somewhat futile even debating it, there really isnt any will for it to drastically change, Labour have done what they wanted with 'lords reform' and that was get a majority. That was their aim all along and they have done it nicely with the mask of trying to be democratic.

    If it is to be elected, it must be for a significantly longer term, 8 or 10 years, that way they would be less liable to be pushed around by the parties.

    and it can't be through party lists eithers, as it'll just be another 'give us money and we put you top of list' method

    make house of lords a revising and knocking back chambers (at the moment they can propose private members bills in the commons) and make it randoms from around the country i say, or another odd system, say hereditry :p
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